Diving without Certification (A RANT)

[Rogersea]

In my opinion, if logistically possible, it is best to have your first open water experience with a knowledgable, experienced instructor. They are more likely to ensure you get the best experience possible.

In the past many people taught themselves to dive or were taught by their Father, Brother, Sister, Mother, Uncle or friend. In this day and age there are so many chances to experience the first dive with someone who has been trained to accomodate new divers, that it is not worth putting yourself, or the well intentioned albeit "non certified" instructor at risk of a lawsuit or worse if things dont go as planned (however unlikely that may be)...

Full Disclosure: I am a SCUBA Instructor and benifit financially by individuals choosing to use an instructor.

Cheers,
Roger

 

[HowardE]

As this is in the New Divers thread, I would strongly suggest that anyone wishing to try scuba diving, enlist in a sanctioned DSD programme- which is not going to cost you $300. To suggest otherwise is misleading.

Of course you would... you're an instructor. It's almost obligatory for you to do so...

For any other '250+ tech divers' aspiring to be instructors... well I hope you know what you think you know about introducing others to a potentially hostile environment.

So, a shore dive with no surf, no current, to 15 feet is a potentially hostile environment?

I'm sorry, but it's just like the "experts" to assume that everyone else has no clue.

 

[Cave Diver]

I simply put my case that being a 'tech diver' with 250 dives does not make one immediately suitable to be bringing novices down underwater. 250 dives and a long hose doesn't make one capable of explaining and conducting beginner dives.

Nor does being an instructor with only 100 dives make one immediately suitable or capable in my opinion, especially at 18 years of age. Yet, there are people all the time who do so.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but without more details about the dive, the diver, and the conditions under which it occurred I just can't jump on your bandwagon about it being patently unsafe. Was it the best idea, especially from a liability standpoint, no. But that doesn't automatically qualify it for "Hey ya'll, watch this!" status either.

 

[BluewaterSail]

I think that it is wrong to compare this to real scuba instruction. Apples to apples. DSD is often done by DMs, and even sometimes shop employees who are not even a DM. I've met plenty of DMs that have alot less knowledge and experience than a 250 dive tech diver.

 

[tomfcrist]

This topic always brings up the back and forth tit for tat conversation that has occured over the last 2 days. Remember that there is no law stating that you have to be certified to scuba dive, just as there is no law saying that you have to be certified to skin dive(which has more immediate risks IMO).

I teach diving to the ones that want to learn safety, and become Certified divers......I dove for the better part of 20 years without a certification, and know many fantastic divers that are still not "Certified".......And im talking Tech. The real question is if the guy that took this other dude down is willing to assume the liability and responsibility for taking on a fresh diver and showing him the ropes.

Is it the safest thing in the world? Probably not.

Is it unheard of? Definitely not.

 

[DevonDiver]

Of course you would... you're an instructor. It's almost obligatory for you to do so...

I believed it was obligatory on the board - not to "advocate unsafe diving practices as defined by the major certification agencies of the scuba diving world

".
​

I believe that diving whilst unqualified, not under the supervision of a certified professional, would be defined as an unsafe diving practice by the major certification agencies of the scuba diving world.

Or is there a caveat, for those members who 'think they know better'?

So, a shore dive with no surf, no current, to 15 feet is a potentially hostile environment?

I know a person who died under exactly those conditions. Brixham, UK, got hypothermia from using a borrowed wetsuit, buddy didn't intervene. Drowned.

Of course, that was a qualified diver, in temperate water (UK spring ~12 celcius) with a qualified buddy. We'd obviously expect so much more knowledge and experience from an unqualified diver?

Or... are we to suggest that it was the quality of supervision that was lacking? The most important criteria? That an instructor would have been educated, motivated and vigilant to have prevented this... had they been present?

I'm sorry, but it's just like the "experts" to assume that everyone else has no clue.

If we're talking about scuba instruction, rather than diving in general, then I do believe that a qualified and experienced instructor can speak with more authority than someone who's never taught or supervised unqualified divers.

 

[HowardE]

I believed it was obligatory on the board - not to "advocate unsafe diving practices as defined by the major certification agencies of the scuba diving world

".
​

I believe that diving whilst unqualified, not under the supervision of a certified professional, would be defined as an unsafe diving practice by the major certification agencies of the scuba diving world.

Or is there a caveat, for those members who 'think they know better'?

Oh well. Look at this thread. Only the "professional instructors" are saying that the OP is totally right. This was unsafe. Everyone else must be wrong.

Let's be clear again... Nobody has condoned the practice of continued diving without certification. Nobody is suggesting to bypass the professional instructors... your jobs are safe.

I know a person who died under exactly those conditions. Brixham, UK, got hypothermia from using a borrowed wetsuit, buddy didn't intervene. Drowned.

You really want to go there? How many people die under the direct supervision of professionals??

Of course, that was a qualified diver, in temperate water (UK spring ~12 celcius) with a qualified buddy. We'd obviously expect so much more knowledge and experience from an unqualified diver?

Qualified as determined by whom? You? Joe? You and the other instructors are seeing this as a roadmap to unseat you all from a job. That's not the case. You honestly believe that me taking a friend diving in what I KNOW TO BE a safe situation is patently unsafe? To that, I call BS.

Or... are we to suggest that it was the quality of supervision that was lacking? The most important criteria? That an instructor would have been educated, motivated and vigilant to have prevented this... had they been present?

Nobody said this. Just instructors who want to try to validate themselves as instructors.

If we're talking about scuba instruction, rather than diving in general, then I do believe that a qualified and experienced instructor can speak with more authority than someone who's never taught or supervised unqualified divers.

I believe that's totally crap as well. I bet that I without any formal training in teaching could teach a better course than joe shmoe who is an overnight sensation and has the bare minimum 100 dives to be an instructor.

I mean, if you want to take extreme positions on this... then so will I.

This whole thread is whether or not it's inherently unsafe, and the vast majority of experienced divers (except scuba instructors) in this thread seem to agree that it's not.

 

[tomfcrist]

Nobody said this. Just instructors who want to try to validate themselves as instructors.



I believe that's totally crap as well. I bet that I without any formal training in teaching could teach a better course than joe shmoe who is an overnight sensation and has the bare minimum 100 dives to be an instructor. .

The hilarious part is when you decide to do that, and your friend that you are teaching gets injured or worse(not saying that that will happen mind you), the family of said person is going to sue the **** out of you. And unless you have some kind of insurance for personal liability, you are going to lose your house, cars and even that fancy rebreather you have. Just to make myself clear, the problem with this isnt that the diver is any less safe diving with you than with me, but I am much safer (legally) when I teach him vise you.

 

[Hawkwood]

Questions about risk assessment, risk mitigation, liability tolerance etc. should not be confused with the ability/capability to teach.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I would need to know more about the dive and the predive Information before I called this safe or unsafe.

I have taken both my brother and my niece on Try Dives. Prior to the experience I had them read the OW Manual, complete the questions, discussed the practices, put them in our backyard swimming pool with me to get them comfortable.

Only then did I take them to a nice safe easy entry/exit dive site. Stuck to them like glue.. showed them the pretty fishes.. got a few happy snaps. Never did we get deeper than 3M. Both were on holidays here from an area where they will not have the chance to dive. Now they understand my passion, enjoy my shots more and we share a lovely experience. My brother is unlikely to dive again but loves the memory we share. My niece..who knows if she will pursue it at any point but we shared the experience, she loves to show the video and pictures.

I double I would do it for someone other than family due to liability issues but I honestly don't feel I put my loved ones at risk. As a matter of fact they were probably safer than they would have been with a brief instruction and taken into the water with an instructor with others doing their TRY DIVES. I know a few instructors and DM's I would not trust the safety of my loved ones to!

If they were interested in continuing to dive however I would find them a good instructor and make sure they got the best training possible!