Question about air2's

[saudio]

You will have to do things differently in an emergency? Ahhhhhhhhh..... Yep, errrrr, you might have to find another source of air, just a suggestion.... I might also try to find another way to dump air on my BCD other than hold the LP inflator over my head (like using the 3 other to dump air).

To say that In an emergency 99.99% of divers will remember this that or the other thing is the only way to save there lives doesn't really support the argument. for most of my diving career (Certified in 1980) my octo was tucked neatly in my ass crack. For most recreational divers, there octo might as well be stored there. I grab my LP inflator several times every dive. I think that trumps the fact that most divers are practicing air sharing with their traditional octo, how many time during a diver? How many times on a dive are they checking where your octo is located? The benefit of muscle memory from grabbing and operating your Air II will go more for situational awareness than the diver that OCCASIONALLY checks where his secondary is an if it is hasn't slipped out.

Air II may not constitute a majority, but there are probably more of them out there than there are people with DIR or HOG configurations. Not that there is anything wrong with diving those rigs, despite the fact that make only a small fraction recreational divers. Although, we might consider banning all those rigs with there confusing piles of redundant gear, it might confuse a stressed diver, preventing them from successfully mugging other divers for there back-up air, causing more gear related tragedies.

By the way, who exactly does "We" represent? Writing yourself in third person plural does not constitute a knowledgable majority.

What exactly are you guys reading? Because few of you are responding to what I wrote. "To say that In an emergency 99.99% of divers will remember this that or the other thing is the only way to save there lives doesn't really support the argument." The only way to save their lives? I said that I believe one way is statistically safer than another. That's all I said.

"Writing yourself in third person plural does not constitute a knowledgable majority." Where did I say or imply, even obliquely, that we were a knowledgeable majority? I was simply including the other people in the thread that agreed with me.

Please feel free to disagree with me, I enjoy chatting about diving. But you don't need to make stuff up out of thin air. I say enough actually dumb things that it isn't necessary.

 

[CT-Rich]

What exactly are you guys reading? Because few of you are responding to what I wrote. "To say that In an emergency 99.99% of divers will remember this that or the other thing is the only way to save there lives doesn't really support the argument." The only way to save their lives? I said that I believe one way is statistically safer than another. That's all I said.

"Writing yourself in third person plural does not constitute a knowledgable majority." Where did I say or imply, even obliquely, that we were a knowledgeable majority? I was simply including the other people in the thread that agreed with me.

Please feel free to disagree with me, I enjoy chatting about diving. But you don't need to make stuff up out of thin air. I say enough actually dumb things that it isn't necessary.

Sorry if I got a little snarky. But the repeated use of 99.99% statistic kind of irked me. I think that is a statistic made up completely out of thin air....

Saying that an Air II create a hazard isn't really fair to a reg that has been in user for years, I have seen tons of regs that really were crap come and go. Most of them went because the market place recognized them as crappy gear and they didn't sell well and were discontinued. I have never read a first hand experience where someone explained why an Air II added to bad outcome. The fact that I haven't seen anyone here posting a news clip or a DAN report indicates that most concerns about Air II are based solely on opinion with no supporting data. As someone else observed there is diving and there is internet diving. Perhaps they are a hazard to internet diving and are a virtual Internet deathtrap, but I am hard pressed to see any data that they are dangerous in non-hypothetical situations....

 

[saudio]

Since I almost always dive with a back mounted pony with the second stage bungied around my neck. I would have no good place to store a third, normal standard octopus. In addition, we KNOW that people trying to manage three standard second stages have gotten confused, screwed up and died!

For the record, my rig is a standard hose length primary routed over my right shoulder, a standard octopus, and a back mounted 13 cu ft pony tank with a necklaced regulator. No problem whatsoever storing the octopus on a keeper on the front of my BC, using a 42 inch hose routed under my right arm. And I know that there have been deaths of technical divers caused by confusing multiple second stages with different gas mixes or empty bottles, but I'm not aware of any such deaths occurring during recreational diving with nitrox or air.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

For the record, my rig is a standard hose length primary routed over my right shoulder, a standard octopus, and a back mounted 13 cu ft pony tank with a necklaced regulator. No problem whatsoever storing the octopus on a keeper on the front of my BC, using a 42 inch hose routed under my right arm. And I know that there have been deaths of technical divers caused by confusing multiple second stages with different gas mixes or empty bottles, but I'm not aware of any such deaths occurring during recreational diving with nitrox or air.

Then you should do more research about how it can kill people. Almost got a good friend of mine..

As for your third second stage, bungied to your chest.... That presents another freeflow hazard that may not be nearly as obvious as a second stage around your neck. You WILL notice a freeflow from a reg on your neck.. Fighting your way down an anchor line in a strong current while wearing a thick suit and being bathed in the bubbles from a diver immediately below you may easily mask the freeflow from a second stage that is clipped off "down there"...

 

[CT-Rich]

I'm not sure why a clipped off octo would be forgotten any more than any other piece of equipment you have to handle before every dive, including an octo that is bungeed. And wouldn't a combo inflator be mounted on the diver's left?

At least we both agree that an octo is a better option than a combo.

Let me get this straight...
You think a combo is bad because it might cause noobe confusion. Yet you think someone having an octo that is mechanically anchored to BCD is safer? Imagine the noobe confusion of trying to breath off a reg that is still clipped to a BCD.

Describing your own rig you have THREE regs attached to two air sources. Could you explain how this set up is superior to a combo. Seems to me you are wearing a belt and suspenders... You need to ditch the octo altogether and dive a pony (that is a recommendation, not a fact). Too much gear hanging off you underwater (opinion). More stuff to get entangled on debris(99.99% certainty). More junk to sort out gearing up. more weight to exit the water with. If you have a OOA situation you have two alternatives to grab, one of which will not provide air. How many SPGs are included in this configuration?

I am not sure how you can be saying that this or that is better than a combo. You might want to take a look at how much stuff you are taking in the water and asking yourself about the amount of task loading you are bringing with you for when the poo hits the fan.

 

[doctormike]

I've been using mostly Air-2's for maybe 15 years now... You are missing a few things. The Air 2 hose is MUCH easier to disconnect in an emergency. And we know that "stuck-on- inflators" is vastly more common than the need to share air. I personally consider that a significant benefit, more so than the loss of a hose.

As for all the "extra training" this device necessitates... It ain't much, just stick the damn thing in your mouth and come up. Do it often, learn how it feels, if it pulls and practice over and over on dumping air on ascent. To be honest, switching over to the Air 2 is such a "non-event" that I hardly ever practice it. I try to remember to make my kid do it with me on ascent.

Since I almost always dive with a back mounted pony with the second stage bungied around my neck. I would have no good place to store a third, normal standard octopus. In addition, we KNOW that people trying to manage three standard second stages have gotten confused, screwed up and died! This type of confusion is nearly impossible with a pony second stage on my neck and my Air 2 and my primary. So IF someone dives with a back mounted pony, I see another reason to use an AIR 2 (we are going far beyond the elimination of a hose here).


Another advantage... if I am doing "baby dives" and decide to not take the pony, I can still dive the rig without screwing around and adding an additional hose onto my regulator...A significant advantage.

I'm not some kind of Air 2 cheerleader, but it does provide some benefits, enhances SOME aspects of safety and has worked pretty well for me for many dives... It seems that you would argue that standardization would move us away from this device..

I think recreational divers would derive much more benefit from being better trained, rather than worrying over what kind of "standard" BC inflator they use.

This video shows my son and me, sharing my short primary and me using the Air 2 to conserve some of my 13-yr old son's air so we could more safely make it back to the ascent line at 80 feet. Does this look "hard" to anyone?

OK, I'm glad that it works well for you... and I'm also glad that you are sharing other features of the Air2 that some of us might not know about. That does make sense. And I certainly agree that better training is a plus for any diving situation and any gear configuration.

However, my point about standards is that they are there as firewall for when training is not good, conditions are unanticipated, and buddies don't have the same level of experience with a piece of gear - sort of like the issues with open circuit and rebreather buddy pairs.

Also, If you actually are carrying a redundant air source like a pony bottle with it's own reg, then you wouldn't need an octopus, and I agree that a third second stage would be confusing and not streamlined. My understanding was that if you are carrying a completely redundant system, then a backup second stage on your back gas isn't optimal. That's what I had learned in my solo cert class...

BTW, cool video... everyone looks very calm and in control, and you are lucky to have such a good buddy (I like diving with my sons too!).

Now tell us about how it worked it in an unanticipated OOG emergency at depth, with someone other than a regular buddy.

 

[CT-Rich]

If you are diving with an instabuddy, you tell them I am going to use the Air II and you can use my primary. Pretty much the same conversation you should have with any diving rig. What are you going to donate, where it is located and how it is operated. No more complicated that identifying dumpable weight. You cannot idiot proof diving gear for those that lack training.

I have yet to see any evidence that an Air II is more likely to contribute to a OOA disaster than any other secondary reg.

 

[rhwestfall]

you cannot idiot proof diving gear for those that lack training.

bingo!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[CT-Rich]

This is a link to a previous thread about diving fatalities, very informative. The main thrust is that human failures are far more likely to cause a bad outcome than poor choice of gear. While would not recommend diving an octo and a pony, my characterizing it as unsafe is more melodramatic than anything else. having a person in the water who is so poorly trained that they will freak out when they hit a bump in the road is the real issue, not whether you are diving an Air II.


http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...tics-what-kills-people-most-scuba-diving.html

 

[BDSC]

Now tell us about how it worked it in an unanticipated OOG emergency at depth, with someone other than a regular buddy.

Why do you think it would work any differently? So DumpsterDiver is diving with a new or not his usual buddy. That buddy signals OOA. You give him/her your primary and start breathing off your AIR II and up you go. Now let's say DumpsterDiver has an octo instead and it's bungeed around his neck. Same buddy signals OOA. He donates his primary and starts breathing off his octo. Up you go.

How does the fact that his inflator having a mouthpiece on it just screw it all up and confuse the OOA diver? If the OOA diver has never dove with someone who has an octo around his neck, will he go nuts and get confused? Will it cause even more panic because he has never seen this set-up?