NACD Instructor standards violation

[victorzamora]

WHO is railroading Rob?? And as far as him not playing "cave community politics"....how does he end up in the middle of so much of the politics?

Pete, I ask again. As clearly and honestly as I can.

Who is railroading Rob? You stated it as fact, and I'm interested to know who is railroading him.

 

[Uncle Sandwich]

ITT: Only damage, no progression.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[kensuf]

It would appear that these requirements are at cross purposes. I have yet to meet the instructor that did not 'promote' their classes. This sets up all instructors to violate the rules and then the same rules require that they violate them anyway. You can't promote the NACD without promoting students to take classes. Talk about a catch 22.

The cave community should have learned its lesson about transparency by now. The practice of suppressing any information, positive or negative, is anathema to promoting safety. The intent might have been noble but the results are horrible. Open and honest discussions here and elsewhere do a lot towards exposing bad practices and bad instructors. Forbidding members to 'disparage' or to 'refrain from making any public content' is Orwellian no matter how you try to justify it. Trying to keep instructors from discussing events and issues via threat of expulsion is a great way to control the spin, but that goes against the whole idea of transparency. It's what SDI/TDI did to Jim Wyatt for expressing his feelings about their efforts to cash in on cave diving. Sure, it works for North Korea, but is that how you want to be viewed? Such draconian responses makes you wonder what they are really trying to hide.

In addition, it fuels the fires of back biting and turf wars in the cave community. How many have expressed that the whole mess brought against Rob Neto is fraught with hearsay and pettiness? The rumor is even circulating that this is a ploy by Larry Green to get to be training chair again. Now you've pissed off Rob to the point that he is simply out of craps to give. He won't respond to these silly allegations because after TWO YEARS, it's obvious that they aren't going to go away in spite of absolutely no evidence. Rob is being rail roaded simply because he won't lower himself to continue to play cave community politics. It's no wonder that he has been bitten by the bitter bug and refuses to play along with the charade. Now, are my comments 'disparaging' or heart felt constructive criticism? There's no way for anyone but me to know my intent. If you're butthurt by the comments, then they are disparaging. If you agree with them, then I'm your cyber hero.

Wow, lots of stuff to quote, but my reply will be pretty short in comparison.

I am a member of two agencies. You used to be a member of one of them, and I believe you may have (or are) a member of the other. Both have a code of ethics which can be summarized as saying don't publicly disparage another member, but if you see another member doing something bad/dangerous/questionable, contact HQ and file a report.

I do not see those ethics policies as a transparency issue. They are there to protect the innocent from some of the back yard brawl mud slinging that can go on when two factions do not get along. "Innocent until proven guilty," if you will.

The second part of my reply is regarding the NACD stance on promoting cave diving for economic gain. I interpret it to read that cave instructors have an obligation to make cave training available to keep someone from hurting their self, but they should not actively recruit people to take up the activity. This is comes from the inherent danger in cave diving -- it is more dangerous than open water diving, and should be respected. But it also comes from the fact that the caves are delicate and fragile systems, and they should be protected and preserved as well.

You and I have debated this before, but I tend to agree with the NACD philosophy on this front, which is one of the reasons my signature has a simple link to my website but no details on the kind of training I offer.

ok, gotta run, I'm teaching this weekend.

---------- Post added May 30th, 2015 at 06:19 AM ----------

When is the cave community going to get out of sixth grade and stop with the endless childishness? Until transparency is embraced by all the agencies, then it's never going to end. Never.

Golden rule of scuba, never hold your breath. I've been cave diving off and on since 1994, the politics and rumors have always been there.

 

[Redshift]

The second part of my reply is regarding the NACD stance on promoting cave diving for economic gain. I interpret it to read that cave instructors have an obligation to make cave training available to keep someone from hurting their self, but they should not actively recruit people to take up the activity.

I remember NetDoc raising the same question some time ago and receiving similar answers. It's not hard to understand the difference between having training and some information available for those who seek it and actively recruiting new divers just so they can make money instructing them.

 

[The Chairman]

i have really dialed back my scubaboard posting of late but I just cant get over pete murray being the arbiter of how the cave community can act on any given issue.
especially when he's spreading rumors about larry green while telling others to not spread rumors about rob et al.

Distortion. Here's one of our members distorting reality.

First, we appreciate you dialing back your ScubaBoard posting: it's become a friendlier site.
Second, what you can't get over is that I have an opinion. I've never claimed to be an arbiter of anything. But rather than deal with the concepts, you have to make this personal and mean. It's nothing but a personal attack, and if it were against anyone else, it would have been deleted.
Third, I haven't started or spread any rumors about Larry Green. I did point out that a rumor had been started and I'll refer back to the seventh post of this thread:

So, Larry wants to be TD again?

This type of verbal harassment is what's wrong with the cave community today. People like letehedded feel it's their right to harass, cajole and intimidate others in order to feel good about themselves and push their agenda. It's mean, it's intellectually dishonest and it impedes communication. I have an opinion and I'm not going to let others stop me from voicing it.

 

[PfcAJ]

Then don't stop. But don't be surprised when other people voice their opinions.

 

[LiteHedded]

Distortion. Here's one of our members distorting reality.

First, we appreciate you dialing back your ScubaBoard posting: it's become a friendlier site.
Second, what you can't get over is that I have an opinion. I've never claimed to be an arbiter of anything. But rather than deal with the concepts, you have to make this personal and mean. It's nothing but a personal attack, and if it were against anyone else, it would have been deleted.
Third, I haven't started or spread any rumors about Larry Green. I did point out that a rumor had been started and I'll refer back to the seventh post of this thread:

This type of verbal harassment is what's wrong with the cave community today. People like letehedded feel it's their right to harass, cajole and intimidate others in order to feel good about themselves and push their agenda. It's mean, it's intellectually dishonest and it impedes communication. I have an opinion and I'm not going to let others stop me from voicing it.

youre welcome Pete. It seems super friendly. Especially in this thread.

Verbal harrassment is a bit much. I'm not sure what agenda you think I have. I couldn't care less who is on the board of the nacd or about any of this nonsense. But when u come on here complaining about rumors while slipping in a brand new one about Larry green I have to say something. Most of your diatribes I let go without commenting.

in any case I applaud what Rick and Jim have been trying to do despite what these threads have turned in to. Now I'm off to go cave diving. Imagine that....

 

[Aotus]

in any case I applaud what Rick and Jim have been trying to do despite what these threads have turned in to. Now I'm off to go cave diving. Imagine that....

:yelclap:

 

[The Chairman]

But when u come on here complaining about rumors while slipping in a brand new one about Larry green I have to say something. Most of your diatribes I let go without commenting.

If I were to guess, it would be that your ultimate agenda is needless drama and to slap people around. You continue to suggest that I started this rumor about Larry, when I referenced the genesis of it in this thread with a quote and I've only referred to is as a rumor. Who knows what your agenda is, but we do know that you're going out of your way to be unreasonable and that you won't or can't admit when you're flat out wrong. Your type of FUDDD is what's wrong with the cave community today. Unfortunately, Rick and Jim's collective efforts will be torpedoed by people such as yourself who hold themselves as arbiters of what opinions should be allowed on the interwebs. I can almost hear you recounting this thread to your homies and telling them how you put NetDoc in his place. Oh, how clever you'll come across as you twist my words and make yourself out to be some kind of hero. Have fun.

 

[The Chairman]

I remember NetDoc raising the same question some time ago and receiving similar answers. It's not hard to understand the difference between having training and some information available for those who seek it and actively recruiting new divers just so they can make money instructing them.

I still reject the answer. It's a slippery slope and it inhibits the great instructors from competing with the lesser agencies. It's hard to become an NACD or NSS-CDS cave instructor, but not so much with any of the other agencies. So, you have these other agencies doing more and more training often with instructors who can not earn an NACD or NSS-CDS instructor card. There's no wonder why there's so much chaos in the cave! It's not only bad for business: it's bad for cave safety and conservation. The old paradigms forged before the internet need to evolve to embrace the information age and the added pressures by all the agencies wanting to jump in on cave training. Evolve or go the way of the dinosaur.