Advanced Open Water Disappointment

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It's commonly required as a hedge against liability. It allows operators to go to the sites the divers, in theory, have the training and experience for. Otherwise if someone goes on a 90 ft dive and runs out of air and makes a rapid ascent and gets bent, they will not take responsibility for that. They will sue the operator for even taking them to a site where going to that depth is possible.
The aow card can be used by the operator to point to the diver and say, " not our fault. They have a card that says they know how to plan and execute the dive safely. "
That's why it's required.
Guess personal responsibility isn’t a thing anymore
Not that it’s hard to calculate your SAC and RMV, then figure out from there how much gas would be used on a 90 foot dive…then again, divers shouldn’t just blow 30 feet past their trained limit.
If a diver isn’t even thinking of how their gas consumption increases at depth, and how much, they shouldn’t do that dive. Their fault. Sadly a judge or jury may be able to be persuaded otherwise
 
Then he made a comment about "hoping" that nobody checked yes to the medical issues because we'd need a doctor to sign off.
This is the most damning thing in your report, IMHO. The class you explained does sound substandard. How much did you pay for it?
 
Guess personal responsibility isn’t a thing anymore
Not that it’s hard to calculate your SAC and RMV, then figure out from there how much gas would be used on a 90 foot dive…then again, divers shouldn’t just blow 30 feet past their trained limit.
If a diver isn’t even thinking of how their gas consumption increases at depth, and how much, they shouldn’t do that dive. Their fault. Sadly a judge or jury may be able to be persuaded otherwise
The reality, whether AOW or not, the majority of tourist divers have no idea of their gas requirement before a dive. they expect the operator to plan the dive for them.

I get a fare number of Dive Masters (and some Open Water Instructors) wanting to do the BSAC Advanced Diver course who have forgotten how to calculate their gas requirements. Something I insist a student demonstrates before each lesson (a BSAC Standard).
 
The reality, whether AOW or not, the majority of tourist divers have no idea of their gas requirement before a dive. they expect the operator to plan the dive for them.

I get a fare number of Dive Masters (and some Open Water Instructors) wanting to do the BSAC Advanced Diver course who have forgotten how to calculate their gas requirements. Something I insist a student demonstrates before each lesson (a BSAC Standard).
What??
When it comes to the very thing keeping me alive….I’m gonna calculate that myself, and have my buddy double check, thanks. Idk how people aren’t more self sufficient with this stuff
 
What??
When it comes to the very thing keeping me alive….I’m gonna calculate that myself, and have my buddy double check, thanks. Idk how people aren’t more self sufficient with this stuff
From what I've seen in this industry you are the exception rather than the rule. It's a wonder there aren't more fatalities and injuries from diving with the stuff I've seen in my short time diving.
 
Is all of that the new instructor's fault though? I feel like scheduling/resource utilization is much more about dive shop management. Cram it in. Pay less for the instructors time, the boat and the boat captain, etc. It feels a bit like the newbie instructor (first AOW course) was set up to fail - and like the OP, didn't say anything to dive shop management.
This appears to be a case where both the dive-shop and instructor are are issue. IMO, the dive-shop is at bigger fault, because it sounds like they didn't properly prepare or screen the instructor, threw a bunch of students at him and said "good luck!" The instructor in some ways acknowledged they had no idea what they were doing, and perhaps felt they were throw in the deep-end.

In my experience as a student, it's common for there to be (1) an instructor and (2) an assistant instructor. The assistant instructor does help the main instructor, but presumably is also there to learn and gain some hands-on experience leading to them becoming more confident and able to lead classes themselves.
 
This appears to be a case where both the dive-shop and instructor are are issue. IMO, the dive-shop is at bigger fault, because it sounds like they didn't properly prepare or screen the instructor, threw a bunch of students at him and said "good luck!" The instructor in some ways acknowledged they had no idea what they were doing, and perhaps felt they were throw in the deep-end.

In my experience as a student, it's common for there to be (1) an instructor and (2) an assistant instructor. The assistant instructor does help the main instructor, but presumably is also there to learn and gain some hands-on experience leading to them becoming more confident and able to lead classes themselves.
Depends on the location. And if it's a shop or independent. Many independents don't use assistants unless they need them. I kept my ratios for ow at 2 to 1. Advanced and tech classes 3 to 1 or less.
I was with a shop when I taught my 1st class of ow students after becoming a YMCA instructor. No oversight or assistance. But then my IDC was nearly 8 months and I'd taught, under supervision or as a team, nearly 100 classes from ow through dm. The YMCA program didn't have 10 day instructor classes. You became a dm, ai, and then instructor by actually teaching. First under supervision, then independently for some portions.
My first task as a new dm candidate was to prepare a one hour lecture for the 1st classroom session of an ow course. Go over it with the instructor, and then teach it to a new ow class with the instructor sitting in.
You didn't just shlep tanks and rinse gear. You actively participated in teaching from the beginning.
 
About par for the course for PADI from my experience. Have come to learn PADI is not much more than a marketing company and only about a step away from being a Multi Level Marketing scheme
I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about the different organizations and I know that PADI gets a lot of crap for a lot of things. I tried to careful in my original post not to say it was PADI for this reason. I wanted a discussion on what the course could have/should have been which I've gotten. That said, in my limited experience it does seem like this is the case. Burn through levels and get instructors. I wonder how many instructors there are in the organization that pay fees but don't do any teaching?

Is AOW required or just the "deep" aspect of AOW though?
I've wondered the same thing. If you had a deep cert would boats allow that instead of the AOW? No idea. Where I dive, if you want to go below 30-50' it is going to be really cold. My first deep dive was with a much better instructor than this one, we were at 87' and it was 37 degrees. Its also going to be really dark, and probably pretty poor vis. All of these factors make it far more likely someone will panic or have another issue like a free flow.

I'd like to find a good SSI instructor and do my deep cert with them. It's not that I feel like I couldn't do a deep dive right now, I do. But I'd be more comfortable with a qualified instructor (or really good buddy). I say SSI because I've already done the 2 other specialties plus stress and rescue with them.

This is the most damning thing in your report, IMHO. The class you explained does sound substandard. How much did you pay for it?
I think I agree with you. It really did feel like he was encouraging everyone to fill it out a certain way. The other thing that I left out of my orginal report was the fact that one of the students was 17. We did "3" dives the first night before the instructor realized he was not 18 and needed parents signiture. You should have seen the panic on the instructors face when he realized that. That said, the student certainly should have spoken up when the paperwork clearly stated that a parents signiture was needed. 100%. They ended up getting it but it took an extra 30 or so minutes of us waiting at the dive shop so they parents could fill it out and email it in.

When it comes to the very thing keeping me alive….I’m gonna calculate that myself, and have my buddy double check, thanks. Idk how people aren’t more self sufficient with this stuff
Agreed. I've really never been taught to do this, but I have learned on my own because I love learning and when I start I knew hobby I get hyperfixated on it and spend every waking minute learning about it. But, to be honest, I havne't really done much gas planning. Not usually. In my area the attitude is usually that it doesnt matter because we are often diving 20' or less. I feel like most people just assume that at 20' if they run out of air it is an easy swim to the surface. The more I've learned the more I understand that this is an important skill to learn/master.

When we got done with the class and we all filled out our log books together, not a single person besides me and the instructor knew how to use the tables. I think the 17 year old maybe did, I couldn't tell. True, everyone was using a computer that weekend, but still. How do you get through OW and to AOW and not know how to use the tables? How do you go on a 96' dive and not understand your NDL? My dive buddy told me more that one time he just "does whatever the computer tells him to" :oops:
 
Giving a preference to SSI or PADI or whoever is nonsense, what matters for a given course is the instructor and then the dive sites (not too easy for AOW is better)
True in part. Without a doubt, regardless of the agency, the instructor will make the most difference.

However, AOW in the PADI world is not the same thing as AOW in SSI world. The SSI equivalent to PADI AOW is Advanced Adventurer. SSI AOW is not a sampler. It's not even a course. It's a recognition of completing 4 specialties. Which one is better will depend on which specialties. If the specialties are the same, there is potential for the SSI route being more thorough as they are complete specialties.

But agreed, a good instructor will make the biggest difference.
 
I've wondered the same thing. If you had a deep cert would boats allow that instead of the AOW?
A prereq for the Deep class is AOW....
Or, at least, the Adventure Diver certification with the deep dive.
 
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