Al Hornsby Resigns

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Clint, they're all wonderful people... but there are thousands of LDS owners who have done more for the industry than any of them could hope to.

I agree completely. here is one example

The second dive shop I worked for has been open since 1951 and the original owner was quite a guy. Well known in the industry and respected by many. He was also very intimidating to manufacture reps and the manufactures he dealt with knew the stakes.

Eventually he got so fed up with what some of his vendors were doing via mail order and with his customer service, he just started his own private label brand. He flew to Italy and stayed until he found someone to manufacture private labeled equipment for him and his friends in the business.

He just quit bitching about the problem, found another solution, shot his big middle finger in the air at the manufactures and continued to grow his business profitably.

Any Dive Shop such as OTW could do exactly the same thing via the internet and buy directly from Taiwan and China. That's where everything comes from anyway.

OTW, you sound like your a rougue dive shop owner, a self-proclaimed savior of the industry. I wonder, have you already tried something like this?
 
Welcome to the internet! DotCom 2.0 has been installed and here are a number of it's features:

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Now, if you can learn to run your business with an open model like this, you will never have to worry again. SNAP! I guess that's why I am still here! :D
 
I have never said I didn't like the idea of independents - what I've said is independents hurt the industry. ...They don't like to follow the rules (this is a problem that must be reigned in for the industry to survive.)

Who's rules? Yours? Who are you to tell me what to do?

They don't like or get along with the only shop near them (this may or may not be a valid reason - as it may lead back simply to #1 - they don't like answering to authority.)

Again who's authority? Why should I bend my knee to you? You seem to define "get along" as act in a manner of your choosing to make you money. That's crap.

3. They think they make more money teaching independently (probably the only valid reason one can give for teaching independently,) but this is not always the case.

I teach independently, for free! It's my God given right to spend time how I choose. It's called freedom!

My arguments against independents hold water - no matter whether you want to admit them or not.

It would appear that in your mind that seems to be the case...

Many, not all, but many independents are telling their students to buy online. You can see this clearly all over this board and others. This is some part of the lost business to LDS's around trhe country.

You know this to be a fact? You've surveyed independent instructors? I thought you posted that you are not working with any of them?

I don't, I guess I was missed in the survey. Go figure.

... To be fair, this is also happening in poorly run "cattle call" shops where training is about the dollar and not the sport.

Yes, it's the shops that would appear to lead the way in this department. This is the main reason why I teach independently.

Why will it be gone? The LDS is the hub for all activity that is Scuba.

Yes, this is unfortunate. This was not always the case. As soon as someone realizes they can make a buck out of something, people come out of the woodwork to do so. It goes to prove if there is something that is special, mankind will find a way to defile it.

I've made my living as a diving professional for 38 years. Diving can survive and thrive without the LDS. It did before and can do so again.

Dam independent instructors! People like him screw me out of profits!

Ah yes, the Ferengi 10th Rule of Acquisition: "Greed is eternal."
 
...

2. Thal, I object to those saying I or we have done something to keep independents out of our store. I really don't know any independents and none have ever come in to see what we can do for them. Certainly you could point at my post on this thread as something independents may object to, but I didn't have this attitude two+ years ago... it is something I've seen killing the industry since I opened the shop... and so now I'm making that point....
Then how do you explain the dearth of independent traffic when you offer them a great deal?
 
Then how do you explain the dearth of independent traffic when you offer them a great deal?
C'mon Thal, no one wants to take the blame for sub-standard performance! It's easier to blame forums like SB. :D
 
If basketball followed the dive industry model:

1) No one could buy a basketball without being trained and certified by a coach. This would certainly decrease the number of people buying basketballs. True, you can play basketball without killing yourself, but imagine how much more scuba equipment would be sold without the need for regulation. Due to regulation, there is already one handicap facing the industry. It excludes the masses from immediate participation, and unlike purchasing a car that requires a license to drive, scuba diving isn't the almost necessity the ability to drive is which forces people to take tests and pass driving exams. It is a sport that people can do without. Retailers and manufacturers can expect moving less product. If basketball were regulated, imagine how that would decrease the amount of basketballs and all things related we would see.

2) Basketball retailers have to choose a team affiliation. As a retailer, you depend upon unloading basketballs, say Spalding and Voit, to consumers. You have less consumers now since less people are certified to play basketball. Not much we can do about the regulation, except grin and bear it, but now we are going to do the next most stupid thing as a retailer - we are going to alienate some of the certified basketball players. How? Because basketball teams selling their "brand" convince you that by branding, you will establish your credibility. You are now the official certifier the Boston Celtics pro B-ball program, the North Carolina collegiate B-ball program, and the North Pocono Trojans high school and junior b-ball programs. You have credibility! You also have alienated the Philadelphia 76ers, Temple, and Abington Heights parents, coaches and students, who would prefer to shop elsewhere at a store that posts their chosen or given brand affiliation. Brands - great for teams, coaches and agencies - bad for retailers! The brands the retailer in this instance should be flaunting are Spalding and Voit. All the players from these teams would feel welcome to buy Spalding and Voit from the retailer.

3) In-house coaching pushed for profit. The retailer believes that offering in-house coaching will increase sales of basketballs. Fair enough. It probably will and does. However, the retailer makes a HUGE error and offers coaching by coaches only for a certain brand or a very few brands. (OffTheWall, on this board, managed to alienate Jim Lap and all Jim Lap's students and maybe even a few people that are pro SEI by not "recognizing" Jim's C-card. Even if OTW accepted it in store, there was a certain "attitude" attached to a very respected cert.) So, our basketball retailer tells customers that they only cert with Boston, NC and NP. People who don't want to be associated with these brands turn elsewhere, coaches from other programs who want to coach at the basketball store are turned away or don't feel welcomed. The basketball retailer just lost customers and only retained the ones that are affiliated with the brands, like the brands, or who they've managed to keep due to their customer relation and sales ability. It's hard enough to sell product, but even harder when you reduce your customer base right from the start. If the retailer opened the store to all coaches and all brands and all certed B-ball players, there would be more Voits and Spaldings going out the door. Because there is less product moving, the store decides to profit from in-house training by taking up to 40% of the course fee from the instructor and to offer service for basketballs such as pumping the ball up with air.

4) Services offered for profit. Excellent idea! Basketballs can be pumped full of air and patched if needed. This should help bring in customers and our B-ball retailer will charge a very fair fee for this service. However, our retailer makes another critical error. He gets annoyed when the Spaldings and Voits that are coming in were not purchased from him. To encourage the customer to buy from him, he creates some sort of "punitive" repercussion. A fee for service on products purchased elsewhere when basketballs bought at the store are comped, a higher fee, or just a little bit of verbal hassle that makes customers feel less welcome or scolded. They will start trying to find another store or just go to the basketball store when it is absolutely necessary. Since some customers hate going to the store, they aren't dropping by to talk B-ball and end up buying, here and there, all the little incidental items that could otherwise be sold and add to profit.

5) Territoriality. With the struggle to maintain a profitable store, the retailer feels entitled to protection. The retailer wants Spalding and Voit to only supply product to that store and no others within a given area. While this may make the store happy, it hurts the manufacturer. Less product is sold and increased operating costs drive up the prices at which the store will have to purchase product. The increased costs are passed on to the consumer and certain products move beyond the reach of some participants or potential B-ball players. In the end, it hurts the store already being handicapped by less participants, branding, and alienation. This territoriality is then directed at independent coaches.

6) Protectionism. Our desperate retailer, struggling to stay afloat, and finding ways to control every other aspect of the basketball industry, now looks at the two unknown variables not under his control - independent instructors and online retailers. To further protect his interests, the retailer wants to convince the Team brands offering certs to eliminate independent instructors and force them to affiliate with a store. The retailer believes this will force instructors to make their players buy from the store. It might, at first. But, once players are done with their fundamental certification, basketball magazines, games, and other media will introduce that shop's students to product lines that aren't Voit and Spalding and other Team brands with possibly better programs. Other customers will move on and become loyal customers to other stores, products, brands and coaches. Because some basketball programs will have ceased in the community, there will be less basketball players, and less basketball players will mean the store will have to work harder to create and keep customers. To eliminate online retailers, the store retailer wants to make sure that online purchases are somehow regulated to protect store retailers. Such regulation reduces access and interest in basketballs to the public. A further small percentage of potential customers requiring service or later sales is lost. Also, online customers who become annoyed with their decisions of buying things that don't fit will either buy from the store or patron a store just to try something on with the intent of buying online. This becomes an opportunity to sell that product then and there!

7) Activities. With basketball clearly over-regulated by the local dive center creating various problems and pitfalls, the retailer now must face another hurdle. The basketball industry Basketball Educators and Manufacturers Association made up of a board of directors that are pro Boston and pro professional and collegiate basketball (since they have a controlling interest courts offering B-ball in large glamorous stadiums) pushes basketball as a "destination activity" and you aren't playing basketball unless you are playing in a "glam" court or for a Division 1 or pro team. The marketing of basketball portrays inner city chain hoops, driveway pick up games, and a simple game of OUT or HORSE among a boyfriend and girlfriend as being uncool. Don't patron your local basketball court or store! Come to where people really play the game!

8) Public perception. Because the public no longer sees local basketball as often and because more courts have closed because less players are playing locally and less independent coaches are opening programs, there becomes less awareness and interest. "I didn't know you could play basketball in Baltimore. I thought people only did that in Boston and Philadelphia."

9) Less talent. With less participants in basketball, there is less talent that will rise to the top to play pro ball or coach basketball teams and players. Participants become uncomfortable and frustrated when playing poorly and quit. Coaches lose careers because the standards of what makes a good coach are lowered as talent and experience decreases. Players don't seek to pay for greater levels of instruction to play better because standards are lowered and they don't purchase as much high performance gear. Because talent sucks, there are more injuries in the game and liability increases and rules are introduced to protect players. The game is less interesting for players and fans.

10) Troubled waters and courts. With less people interested in basketball, less players, less coaches, less attention, less excitement, the basketball industry declines. There are very few local players now to take to the glam courts. To attempt fix it, everyone returns to Step 1 by requiring more certs and the process begins all over again.

I wonder what would happen to our sport if we required less certs, but offered better training, if retailers were only that - retailers and offered no instruction, leaving their personal brands and biasis at the door, if any diver from any agency and any instructor felt welcomed and respected at every dive center and not excluded because PADI, SDI or SSI were displayed on the shop door, if retailers promoted equipment brands rather than training brands, if dive centers helped indie instructors open up pools, schools, and programs for training, if dive retailers pressured DEMA, magazines, and other diving entities to push local diving - because it really is a lot more fun and exciting than a reef tour! I think we need to look at who really benefits from the certification process and agency branding. I doubt it is the customer, retailer, or manufacturer.
 
Quite frankly there is someone on here talking alot of bull**** and I know it is not me. My personal reputation speaks for itself!
If you want to challenge my reputation my creditials and what I do at my dive center bring it on! I'm ready!
Cause I am not the one that is caring all the bull****.

Chaz
 
If basketball followed the dive industry model:

... I wonder what would happen to our sport if we required less certs, but offered better training, if retailers were only that - retailers and offered no instruction, leaving their personal brands and biasis at the door, if any diver from any agency and any instructor felt welcomed and respected at every dive center and not excluded because PADI, SDI or SSI were displayed on the shop door, if retailers promoted equipment brands rather than training brands, if dive centers helped indie instructors open up pools, schools, and programs for training, if dive retailers pressured DEMA, magazines, and other diving entities to push local diving - because it really is a lot more fun and exciting than a reef tour! I think we need to look at who really benefits from the certification process and agency branding. I doubt it is the customer, retailer, or manufacturer.

LMAO! Trace, Superb!
 
Quite frankly there is someone on here talking alot of bull**** and I know it is not me. My personal reputation speaks for itself!
If you want to challenge my reputation my creditials and what I do at my dive center bring it on! I'm ready!
Cause I am not the one that is caring all the bull****.

Chaz

Chaz, those of us who know and respect you, continue to respect you. We are not swayed by the savior of the dive industry...

Frank
 
I will also be posting a thread in the SEI forum later today but let me say this here and now. SEI just celebrated 1 year of conducting skills and education based training with a 50 year tradition of excellence in scuba training. As an official spokesman there are certain terms referring to our origins that I have to be very careful using due to trademark issues. So a big thanks to Clint!

Most SEI Diving instructors are independents. As such even though we may own student gear, we generally do not sell equipment. Those of us who do not own shops. As such we are always looking for friendly shops to send our students to. We may even wish to rent classroom space or buy pool time from you. If you would welcome an SEI Diving instructor bringing you more customers, exposing them to the brands you carry, and selling said items to them, let us know. Either via an email to SEI HQ at, SEI Diving Home Page , me at , Welcome to UDM Aquatic Services, or post a welcome in the SEI Diving forum for us. We'd love to work with those shops who would welcome those of us who teach to the high standards that SEI Diving demands of us. Thanks to you in advance and thanks again to Clint, Trace, DCBC, and anyone else who helped us in some way to make this last year a success even if it was just by your acknowledgement of us.

Oh, and to OTW. I know for sure that SEI certs are accepted world wide. I personally made sure of it via an extensive email campaign I undertook to do myself last year to resorts, boats, and dive ops around the world. We are welcome everywhere. That you never heard of it says volumes about your current knowledge of the industry as a whole.
 
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