Mustard Dave
Contributor
Jacket BCDs are more common than the BP&W - it does not make them better. Instead of trying to make your point with another question, why don't you explain why you believe a jacket style BCD is better?
Anybody provide their professional opinions?
- Thread starter Angelito317
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Jacket BCDs are more common than the BP&W - it does not make them better. Instead of trying to make your point with another question, why don't you explain why you believe a jacket style BCD is better?
The only item that needs serviced is the regs. And in the case of regs get an octo that is identical in performance to your primary and uses the same kit.
As for BPW's here's a few reasons.
1. Instructor has no idea how to set one up.
2. Shop owner has no idea how to set one up.
3. Does not make as much profit on one.
4. Mfg reps tell store owners that a BPW is only for tech divers. One told a Midwest store owner that BPW's were only used by Atlantic Wreck divers and not used west of Pennsylvania.
5. Use of a BPW requires divers to be properly weighted. Too many instructors don't seem to know how to do that.
There are a few other quotes I have heard that are too dumb to post.
If the OP wants more info on BPW's both hard and soft style, he can shoot me a PM with his email and I'll send him the article I wrote on using them for new divers and recreational dives in general. I have sent out about 3 dozen copies now of it.
I have the MC9. I got it at a GREAT price and the matching Octo as well. They work great, I just don't like the mouthpiece, but that was easy to replace. I've switched up to a long hose primary and necklace backup and I'm always worried that someone is going to try and grab that yellow octo from around my neck. Once I have the budget, I'll switch over to Hog regs and then a BPW.
The upfront costs of scuba are very high. I'm ok with having bought the cressi regs, even knowing that I'll update later. It's what I could afford at the time to get in the water. With that said though, the Hog regs aren't that expensive either and your budget could be different than mine.
The upfront costs of scuba are very high. I'm ok with having bought the cressi regs, even knowing that I'll update later. It's what I could afford at the time to get in the water. With that said though, the Hog regs aren't that expensive either and your budget could be different than mine.
the most important issue with scuba gear is fit
if you want to go with a jacket style BCD you can finds tons of them that are only one (short) season old on the various second hand selling lists, but make sure to try it on before buying
the same goes for exposure protection
I bought my regs (Apeks XTX 200) second hand and after having them serviced they were still about 2/3 of new ones
some dive schools have a yearly sale of their equipment, so you might save some money there
if you want to go with a jacket style BCD you can finds tons of them that are only one (short) season old on the various second hand selling lists, but make sure to try it on before buying
the same goes for exposure protection
I bought my regs (Apeks XTX 200) second hand and after having them serviced they were still about 2/3 of new ones
some dive schools have a yearly sale of their equipment, so you might save some money there
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My usual 2 cents is it depends on what you consider replacing cheap stuff after a "few" years. I bought everything used 9 years ago and so far replaced my used hood and NEW booties. Regular rinsing did that I guess.
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Read what I posted, I did not say a jacket is better. Because I don't think that either. What I said was that BP/W users are in the minority.
80% of this board does not think BP/W's are better. That was my point. The VOCAL 20% does. And I think it's less than that personally.
Don't you think that manufacturers would make a significant effort to sell the mostly more expensive BP/W configurations if they could? Or are all their marketing people idiots? They sell what the majority of recreational divers want to buy - something that works that they don't have to think about - or worry about configuring too much. So they can spend time watching the pretty fishes instead. I'm one of them, so are all my friends. And we dive a lot compared to most folks, several trips a year and liveaboards. I have honestly never seen a BP/W in use on a liveaboard. Those are pretty hardcore divers who would've spent the money on the optimum gear - for them.
Why isn't every "what BC should I buy thread?" here "which BP/W shoould I buy?" instead? Because most people don't want them. I could've bought anything I wanted a few years ago - even had some discussions offline with Tobin at DSS. For the diving I do, with the things I carry, I made the decision to go back-inflate with a Ranger. I laugh when I read the "where/how do I stow/clip this off while diving my BP/W? Or people who dive a BP/W and need a weight belt also. I just put both in my pockets...
And to say one is more streamlined is ludicrous. I'm personally 6'4 250lbs. I can't prove it but I would surmise that the difference in how well I move thru the water is more affected by the square footage of the fins I use than the difference between having/not having a jacket. And mine is a lot more comfortable since most of my diving is in a t-shirt. I also do a lot of shore diving, I'll take my rig over a BP/W any day for long carries down to the water. It's what's right for me and the majority of other divers.
Have you ever seen BP/W's in a rental fleet at a tropical dive destination - I haven't. And I look at stuff like that even though I have my own gear. They're too hard to configure individually for the average vacation diver who will happily slip into a jacket, put some weights in the pockets and go dive. Are they optimally configured? - No. Do they care? - Probably not...
Jim even reinforced my point. Most people can't/don't care to do any of this. And I agree with all of his points.
I'm thru here. If you aren't convinced, do an honest review of the threads in anything but the highly technical forums here and count for yourself what others are using. It won't be BP/W's. All the major manufacturer's offerings, online websites and local store inventories would seem to back that up. My favorite local shop (large inventory) has at least 100+ different BC's on the floor. They have 3 BP/W's in a "tech" area. Two are actually the same harness configured with a different wing.
The problem with ScubaBoard is that although we are the most participated dive forum, we probably don't attract 5% of the currently certified divers in the world. I read somewhere that PADI has certified a million+ people. So the reality discussed here isn't really.
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freewillie
Contributor
I dive a Stiletto and think it's great. It's not a true travel BC but weighs just over 7 lbs. At the time it was one of the lighter BC's on the market but now there are more true travel BC's with larger bladders that create enough lift for cold water diving.
I don't have the Octo Z but use an Atomic SS1. Very similar. I prefer the buttons and find the tactile difference for inflate/deflate easier to use than a standard power inflator.
The Stiletto runs around $500 or just under depending on the shop. The Atomic is about $125.
I don't have the Octo Z but use an Atomic SS1. Very similar. I prefer the buttons and find the tactile difference for inflate/deflate easier to use than a standard power inflator.
The Stiletto runs around $500 or just under depending on the shop. The Atomic is about $125.
cb5150
Contributor
Another Zeagle Stiletto fan here! They are practically bullet-proof. The ONLY reason I currently dive a BPW is because it take approximately 7-10lbs of steel off my waist and spreads it accross my back. I'm very floaty and use more weight than the average person.
Mustard Dave
Contributor
Your previous comment was:
You are saying that jackets are more common and asking the rhetorical question, 'why is that'? To me, and I expect most people reading that, you are suggesting a jacket is more common is because it is a better choice.
So what do the remaining 80% think? Why is their opinion the correct one?
I am not a marketing expert; I do not know the marketing reasons. I am a diver, so I'll use my experience of diving when offering my opinion.
A BP&W requires no more thought than a jacket to dive with. Squirt air in with that button on the corrugated hose and dump with the other button or the toggle on the kidney dump. The initial set-up may take a little time, but threading a bit of webbing through a few slots isn't rocket science. Once it is set up, you barely have to adjust it again. The set-up is done on dry land; I don't understand why it should affect how much you look at pretty fishes.
Why are people that do liveaboards have a more valid opinion than anybody else. I'd define a hardcore diver as somebody who gets out most weekends in all weather. Most of the people who I dive with fit that category and I have to say I see more of them in a BP&W.
I'd imagine most people ask 'what BC' (a wing is a BC, by the way) is because that is what is more common. What is more common is not necessarily what is best.
How much junk do you really need in your pockets? Most the stuff I carry on a 'recreational' dive can be clipped to a D-ring, but if you need pockets, there are simple solutions. Weight pockets can be added to a BP&W with little effort.
Who said streamlined? I said less cluttered. In a simple one piece harness, I have a lot more freedom of movement in the upper body and therefore a lot more comfortable.
The OP isn't asking 'what is the best rental BCD?' - he is asking for opinion on what kit to buy. What is easier to configure for the average vacation diver is irrelevant as he is the person that will be using it. Once it is set-up for him, nobody needs to mess with it.
Jim's comments:
I read that as a criticism of those who dismiss BP&Ws as a good choice for new or purely recreational divers.
Why should technical forums be dismissed? Techies dive the BP&W because they have many advantages over the jacket. Why should a recreational diver not enjoy those same advantages?
The backplate, the metal plate, will outlast you.
The webbing harness costs very little and is easily replaced.
This metal plate can also take two tanks so the same kit allows you to dive with a single tank, two tanks, two tanks and a stage tanks (or two stages, ...)
I would recommend a backplate over a jacket bcd (unless you specifically want to become a sidemount diver, and get a sidemount rig, but I guess that is not relevant for you now).
Get a separate (nitrox compatible) computer and a separate compass (Suunto SK7 with a bungee mount is lovely) and get a brass cylinder pressure gauge ("SPG").
This setup will prove cost efficient in the long run even if you would become extremely active. Deep diver. Caver diver. What ever. Also note that the metal backplate + adjustable harness fits any belly. Jacket BCD's exist in XS, S, M, L, XL, and XXL and in the seasons colours.
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