Aqualung's stance on e commerce

[DIR-Atlanta]

One does not need to be a certified diver to purchase scuba equipment.

And this is a Good Thing, because otherwise my non-certified relatives would not be able to buy me dive gear as a gift.

 

[MikeFerrara]

This may or may not have been addressed and if so I apologize, I'm late to this thread and have not read it completely. My question is of curiosity only....if one were to purchase a product via the internet, do they have to show some proof of being a certified diver? And if not, would that web site then be liable for damages if that same untrained person went out and injured or worse, killed themselves? Is that what some of the LDS are woried about?

It's not an issue. Certifictaions usually aren't required for purchasing equipment even in a dive shop. Online you enter your credit card number, mailing address, billing address, email and...that's about it.

You can also drive a boat out into the ocean and jump in whenever you want...no laws or restrictions that apply in most places.

If you are an agency reatil member, you sign an agreement that says you won't sell gas to uncertified divers but there's no mention of equipment (at least not in any that I signed). The insurance companies require you to adhere to agency standards which don't address equipment sales.

Besides, don't confuse certification with competance. Maybe I shouldn't sell dive equipment unless I see the diver in the water especially since it's in writing all over the net that I don't think the agencies know anything about diving. But wait, what if a diver I approve gets hurt, am I more or less responsible than if I had sold it to him without checking his skills? After all, I said he was ok and it turned out that he wasn't.

Sometimes, the more you stick your nose in, the more responsibility/liability you assume. It's the duty of care thing.

Nope, I'll sell you a reg. If you think you need to be certified, then get cerrtified. What does that have to do with me? I'm not your mamma.

 

[mike_s]

Falllcreck196,

I very rarely have someone ask me for a certification card anymore. Even in shops that I haven't been into beforfe when buying something or going on a trip.

Hardly ever on air fills. Even in vacation destinations. (maybe 10% of the time).

About the only time you'll see people routinely ask for a certification card is when signing up for a boat trip with a dive operator that doesn't know you. They actually have a little bit more invested in your safety there since you'll be on their boat.

Otherwise, the scuba industry is trying to make money in the long run and knows that if they don't sell it to you because you don't have your cert card with you (or don't have one) that you can just go out on the internet and buy it and then they loose the sale. They would rather have the sale.

The other exception I see when people ask for cards a lot is when renting gear. Again, they have more liability involved when renting you gear. But if you own your own tanks, chances are that most places will never ask you for a card when on vacation.

There is no rule or law you have to be certified. It's a "self enforced industry rule". (However, if it wasn't self enforced by the industry, you might see some government oversight which might be much more restrictive on the industry and hard to allow change to happen.)

 

[MikeFerrara]

And this is a Good Thing, because otherwise my non-certified relatives would not be able to buy me dive gear as a gift.

Don't be so selfish. If we self regulate just a little more and require your relatives to take a class and buy mask, snorkel, fin and bottie packages for themselves, just think of how the dive industry will grow. That's what we want isn't it?

Why do you think that we've made it so quick, cheap and easy to get certified?

 

[MikeFerrara]

There is no rule or law you have to be certified. It's a "self enforced industry rule". (However, if it wasn't self enforced by the industry, you might see some government oversight which might be much more restrictive on the industry and hard to allow change to happen.)

We already have the gavernment getting into it in some places. Canada and the Red Sea for instance. In the US some local Jurisdictions and parks require certification.

Funny story...I was getting ready to dive a cave. the entrance is in a resevoir that is surrounded by national forest. The lake vis is zero and you don't see that many divers around. Thje DNR pulled up in a boat and asked "You're diving here? Why?" I said there is a great cave down there. They then reminded me that the law requires a dive flag...of course we had one.

You don't need to be certified. The threat of government intervention is largely an industry scare tactic. I see no evidence that the self regulation of the industry has made diving any safer. In fact, our short cheap classes and marketing put people in the water that otherwise wouldn't be there and some of them get hurt.

 

[PhilEllis]

You can bet the lawyers at Aqua Lung and Scubapro are keeping their policies well within the law. Don't believe me --- go try to find an attorney to head a class action suit against them on contingency.

I wouldn't necessarily assume that you are correct. You might well be surprised. Companies that skirt the edges of the law or violate it outright in the implementation of their policies often count on the fact that the harmed will not be able to afford a legal action. Remember, it's not the violation of laws that gets you, it's the getting caught and prosecuted part that hurts.

Phil Ellis

 

[redacted]

I understand. When conditions are not favorable, things need to adapt or disappear. The tale you relay sounds like the shops just failed to adapt as there was a reasonably large pupulation of actual and potential customers to service. If the demand is there, a good business can find a way to prosper. The problem is some shops seem to think that if they fly the flag then divers are obligated to come support them on the shops terms.

It is a huge assumption that there actually is competition at all in many parts of the country. I lived in a town, prior to moving to Hawaii, of near 50K with 3 shops that became zero over the course of the last decade/decade and a half. If you drew a 70-80 mile radius around that town you'd probably have close to a half million people, where there used to be 9 or 10 shops, there are now maybe 3 shops (none are going gangbusters as far as I know) servicing that entire area, and depending on where you live, you'd have to drive nearly the entire 140 mile diameter to get to another shop if you were unhappy with your local shop.

Access to scuba services is pathetic compared to what it was a decade ago. If any of those remaining can't survive, it'll only get worse.

Some people live in areas with several shops and just assume there will always be competition and availability of services. A large portion of the country does not have that luxury... and the demise of a local shop can quite possibly very much restrict the diving in that area.

later,

 

[PhilEllis]

Mike, I find your comments to be among the most intelligent I have seen on this subject. Keep telling it like it is.

Phil Ellis

 

[redacted]

Don't be so selfish. If we self regulate just a little more and require your relatives to take a class and buy mask, snorkel, fin and bottie packages for themselves, just think of how the dive industry will grow.

Why don't we just stick them for weights and a weight belt too. That should create another $15 profit per and they won't be any the wiser.:mooner:

 

[roakey]

Mike, I find your comments to be among the most intelligent I have seen on this subject. Keep telling it like it is.

That's because he's been there, done that and lost his t-shirt.

Roak