OP
UWSojourner
Contributor
Nobody in my family would call my gas oxygen :05:. But that's probably not what you meant.roakey:
Sorry for the slip. It was late.
Bail Out?
- Thread starter UWSojourner
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
Sorry for the slip. It was late.
Boogie711
Guest
Don't even THINK about practicing with a Pony Bottle if you're considering DIR-F. It's an unnecessary, bulky, needless and expensive option. And a Spare Air is just laughable, sorry.
Teach her straight up what good buddy skills and team awareness are. Teach her air sharing and how to approach every dive mentally. Those are skills which will last a lifetime. Leaning on a pony bottle 'crutch' is just sending her down the wrong road early.
Put it another way - I take a pony bottle with me on every dive. Strapped to my buddies back.
Teach her straight up what good buddy skills and team awareness are. Teach her air sharing and how to approach every dive mentally. Those are skills which will last a lifetime. Leaning on a pony bottle 'crutch' is just sending her down the wrong road early.
Put it another way - I take a pony bottle with me on every dive. Strapped to my buddies back.
Boogie711:
BINGO!
Spare-Air belongs on GI Joe, Ken and Barbi not on real people. That is a lousy sense of security. Ralph Nader slam dunked the Corvair. He should have taken Spare Air along the same path.
Gary D.
OP
UWSojourner
Contributor
Like I said to Roakey, it was late. I've probably been spending too much time in the Accidents forum.
The "thought" was this. It seems in a lot of the accident scenarios a couple of things go wrong. For example, you lose your gas supply (take note Roakey - I said gas
), no problem. You get help from your buddy. You lose your gas supply after separation from Buddy, big problem. You get entangled, you use your knife or shears, no problem. You get entangled and drop your knife, big problem. Another example, when I was flying a lot VFR I never planned a route over terrain that, should I lose an engine, afforded me NO opportunity to land. To a lot of my friend pilots that seemed absurd since the odds of complete engine loss were so low. Sobeit.
Snowbear, I think your list was good (thanks) and we observe those practices. I'd really like to get into DIR-F sooner, but we're age limited until next year. From what I can tell, they at least practice as if something can go wrong.
Look all, this isn't a Dad looking for guarantees ... I know there are risks. I'm just trying to shave odds whereever possible, and wondered whether a redundant air supply was a good shave. I just don't have enough experience to know where that diminishing returns line is drawn.
Thanks for your help.
The "thought" was this. It seems in a lot of the accident scenarios a couple of things go wrong. For example, you lose your gas supply (take note Roakey - I said gas
), no problem. You get help from your buddy. You lose your gas supply after separation from Buddy, big problem. You get entangled, you use your knife or shears, no problem. You get entangled and drop your knife, big problem. Another example, when I was flying a lot VFR I never planned a route over terrain that, should I lose an engine, afforded me NO opportunity to land. To a lot of my friend pilots that seemed absurd since the odds of complete engine loss were so low. Sobeit.Snowbear, I think your list was good (thanks) and we observe those practices. I'd really like to get into DIR-F sooner, but we're age limited until next year. From what I can tell, they at least practice as if something can go wrong.
Look all, this isn't a Dad looking for guarantees ... I know there are risks. I'm just trying to shave odds whereever possible, and wondered whether a redundant air supply was a good shave. I just don't have enough experience to know where that diminishing returns line is drawn.
Thanks for your help.
UWSojourner:
It seems like you have put a lot of thought into this. Do what you are comfortable with and to hell what everyone thinks.
When I was diving with singles in the open ocean, I always had a pony with me just in case. It never caused a entanglement problem and I only needed it once. I was very glad I had it.
Good Luck to you and yours.
NEWreckDiver:
What happened that caused you to need it?
cobaltbabe
Diva of the Deep
My partner and I dive with his 12 year old son when we can. Both my partner and I are very comfortable with diving together and when the young lad dives with us we take extra care to ensure that he checks his gauges and keeps an open line of communication at all times. When children are involved, there has to be extra care taken, after all they are the future of diving. IMO
A pony provides a little extra gas in a redundant supply and on the surface that sounds good. Indeed a redundant supply can be good and sometimes even required but...
One area of concern is equipment configuration. When the bottly is mounted on your back valve up you may not be able to reach the valve. What if it rolled off or isn't on for some other reason when you need it? If you mount it valve down hose routing might get worse than it already is. You might sling it like a stage but that carries training considerations also.
Do you have an SPG on it where it's visable during the dive? If not how do you know that it didn't bleed down from a leaky reg or hose? If you do have one where do you wear it. More stuff to dangle. While we're on the subject where do we put that third reg? Will it just be more mess and confusion?
It certainly can be a entanglement hazard but that's no problem if you have a buddy but then you don't need the pony either.
If redunancy is in our main supply, you can use it, your buddy can use it or you can use it together. Only one person can use the gas in a pony bottle. you can't even use it in contingency planning.
If a dive requires more gas I carry more. If it calls for redundancy I have it in a form that fits nicely into a real gas plan.
The worst part is that it seems that often a diver feels they need a pony when they're doing dives that they really aren't comfortable with in the first place. Many times after more training and/or experience they decide to skip the pony.
Why don't we talk about what specific kind of mistakes or equipment failures you're trying to plan for and talk about ways to avoid or deal with them?
One area of concern is equipment configuration. When the bottly is mounted on your back valve up you may not be able to reach the valve. What if it rolled off or isn't on for some other reason when you need it? If you mount it valve down hose routing might get worse than it already is. You might sling it like a stage but that carries training considerations also.
Do you have an SPG on it where it's visable during the dive? If not how do you know that it didn't bleed down from a leaky reg or hose? If you do have one where do you wear it. More stuff to dangle. While we're on the subject where do we put that third reg? Will it just be more mess and confusion?
It certainly can be a entanglement hazard but that's no problem if you have a buddy but then you don't need the pony either.
If redunancy is in our main supply, you can use it, your buddy can use it or you can use it together. Only one person can use the gas in a pony bottle. you can't even use it in contingency planning.
If a dive requires more gas I carry more. If it calls for redundancy I have it in a form that fits nicely into a real gas plan.
The worst part is that it seems that often a diver feels they need a pony when they're doing dives that they really aren't comfortable with in the first place. Many times after more training and/or experience they decide to skip the pony.
Why don't we talk about what specific kind of mistakes or equipment failures you're trying to plan for and talk about ways to avoid or deal with them?
AMEN Mike!
Ber
Ber
OP
UWSojourner
Contributor
OK.MikeFerrara:
Like I said, Mike, I'm trying to shave odds, it was late, and I was just thinking. If you look at potential accidents, they break down into certain categories probably. (Don't worry about the Rec-diver-does-cave-dive category or other should-have-known-better dives. We are unlikely to fall into the excessive risk taking category).
In the exact same categories, someone like you probably has lower odds than someone like me because your experience is much greater. So how do you cut the odds? Last night, after a glass of a nice Cab, I said hmmmm ... wonder what SB would think about redundancy for our situation.
It was just one idea, if you know of better approaches to cutting the chances, shoot'em my way.
This may sound a bit awful, but I have looked at the possibility of not returning with a live daughter. If that were to happen, what do I want in that situation? I want to know in my gut that I was deliberate in my decisions (thus, the odds reduction thinking) ... and that she wanted to dive, knowing the potential risks, because she thought it enhanced her life.
Similar threads
