Bail Out?

[pipedope]

BINGO!

Spare-Air belongs on GI Joe, Ken and Barbi not on real people. That is a lousy sense of security. Ralph Nader slam dunked the Corvair. He should have taken Spare Air along the same path.

Gary D.

The SpareAir is a great safety tool, but not for scuba diving.

If you are riding a helicopter over water (especially cold water) the spare-air is a great thing to have. It makes surviving a ditching MUCH easier.

For SCUBA divers there are much better tools.

 

[cobaltbabe]

Because we have a father who is concerned about the safety of his daughter. The fact that this man has come out and openly expressed his concern, whether it be because of a recent incident or just preventative measures is commendable in my eyes. Not one of us on this board want anything to happen to any of the children who are diving. I say do what feel comfortable to you and your daughter and have some fun.

 

[H2Andy]

For SCUBA divers there are much better tools.

which would you suggest?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Yet, while accident data does point to poor skills causing accidents these divers get a pony but don't address the poor skills. I don't get it.

i assume you watch them dive to ascertain that their skills are poor, so this is not an issue.

but what IF you have great skills AND carry a pony?

Another question is...If you had great skills and were diving within the limits of your comfort would you feel the need for a pony?

wouldn't that be safer than having great skills and NOT carrying a pony?

No. I don't think so. If I thought a pony increased safety I would carry one and so would my wife and son.

 

[jhelmuth]

I don't know that a pony adds to risk as much as it might lead some one to believe that they've addressed an issue when the may not have. I see a lot of divers and more than a few with pony bottles. Yet, while accident data does point to poor skills causing accidents these divers get a pony but don't address the poor skills. I don't get it.

My goal isn't to talk any one into or out of anything but I hate to see a diver think they've taken a step in controling risk when all they've done is put a rabbit foot in their pocket.

If your trying to address poor skills with a pony, then you're going to be a statistic (at least at some point). For me, it's about dealing with what you have yet to learn and/or dealing with the unexpected beyond your experience and training.
You obviously have a more flexible stance than most who are opposed to this. For that, I applaud you. Open minds allow for clarity of thought and more careful consideration. Even for myself, I may not yet disagree with the pony - but I am yet to carry one (I'm still debating if I want to really add this to my gear - I don't like extra gear - the less the better).

Mike - I do want you to know that I respect what you are saying - even if we disagree. And it's worth noting that I don't know jack (compared to you) when it comes to diving, as you have much more experience.

Murphy has nothing to do with it. If murphy can make you run out of air he'll drain your pony bottle or turn it off before you need it also.

Maybe - but at least you can make it harder for him to kill you

 

[MikeFerrara]

* When responding to emergencies, yours or someone else's, having an option is better than having no option.

Yes but what's the rule that describes the exponential increase in reaction time for every additional response option there is? What emergency are we worried about that we haven't learned a response for?

* Skills improvement and carrying a redundant air source are not mutually exclusive responses.

True, but we're not just talking about redundant air sources we're talking specifically about a pony bottle.

* Emergencies are not always the result of negligence or oversight. Sometimes they happen to divers who are diving a reasonably good plan.

* Planning to rely on your buddy for all solutions is good. Executing a dive with your buddy solidly beside you at all times is good. Executing the dive relying on your buddy to be solidly beside you at all times and provide all solutions to all your potential problems may not always work out the way you plan. Being able to independently resolve some of your problems AND having your buddy with you covers more bases.

There are many experienced divers on this board who may be able to recall one instance or more where, despite a dive plan to stick with their buddy, some environmental condition or circumstance caused them to become separated.

Its good to make a dive plan to stick with and rely on your buddy. But its also good to have a second plan for when that dive plan may get turned on its ear.

FWIW. YMMV.

Lost gas and lost buddy are addressed individually and together in every OW class that I know of. None of the solutions taught call for a pony bottle.

How many simultanious problems do we need before a pony becomes the only way out on a recreational dive? I think the pony is more likely to cause problems by being there than it is to fix a problem.

I really think that the extra reg, hose, tank and procedures needed to make use of all of it is approaching the point of deminishing returns in most cases.

But this is why I've asked what kind of situation he's concerned about. Did she already practice the solution?

Low on air?...call dive and end normally.
Out of air?...share with buddy
Buddy gone or too far?...controlled emergency swimming ascent.

Are we too deep for these solutions or what?
How did we get out of air? I think we need to look at specifics.

Out of air and buddy's lost? How when you're trained to have a plan for dealing with a lost buddy and often that plan is to surface. I would think that buddy seperation would reduce the chances of running out of air since you're headed up in a minute.

 

[MikeFerrara]

For me, it's about dealing with what you have yet to learn and/or dealing with the unexpected beyond your experience and training.

Yes. Maybe some of us aren't very confident that our training and skills have it covered. Lack of air is certainly one of the first things that we think of when we think of underwater problems.

You obviously have a more flexible stance than most who are opposed to this. For that, I applaud you. Open minds allow for clarity of thought and more careful consideration. Even for myself, I may not yet disagree with the pony - but I am yet to carry one (I'm still debating if I want to really add this to my gear - I don't like extra gear - the less the better).

Some years ago my wife and I took a trip out to North Carolina to do some wreck diving. Nothing happened but it was pretty deep. I had also done a PADI deep diver course. I started looking at spare airs. After some calculations I started pricing pony bottles. In the mean time I started taking classes like Advanced nitrox and stuff like that. Guess what? I never go the pony. Looking back I can tell you that I wanted one because I was diving too deep for the equipment and training that I had. I still wouldn't do those dives with a single Al 80 but my answer isn't a pony bottle either. I knew I was concerned about something and that I needed an answer but I wasn't yet clear on the question.

Mike - I do want you to know that I respect what you are saying - even if we disagree. And it's worth noting that I don't know jack (compared to you) when it comes to diving, as you have much more experience.



Maybe - but at least you can make it harder for him to kill you

No problem. Feel free to disagree. I might even be wrong. According to my wife it happens all the time. LOL

 

[armyscuba]

I'll have to disagree that a SpareAir is useless..We are talking about a Young Girl here. Adding additional weight to her for what? She's not going to breaking world record depths. A SpareAir will get You to the Surface from 60 ft. or less. The additional weight is as just as much a concern for Me as many proponents for a Pony bottle here. Particularly when shore entry is required. Additional weight I honestly don't think she needs now. I beleive she should eventually move into a Pony Bottle. But You have to Crawl before You Run. "One step at a Time"...

 

[pipedope]

For SCUBA divers there are much better tools.

which would you suggest?

A pony is a supply of additional gas first. Secondly it does supply an additional regulator.

Do you need additional gas?
Probably not.
You need to be staying in water that has low chance of entanglements and no overhead. Both divers should be watching their gas and their buddies gas. If there is any real problem, terminate the dive.

Do you need an additional regulator?
Probably not.
Both divers have a regulator with a safe second. If your reg fails, breath from your buddies reg and terminate the dive.

The pony adds weight and complexity to the rig that is not needed at this stage. It also adds significant maintenance and more things to check before and during the dive.
It is more tuff to deal with right at the time the diver does not need more stuff to handle.

The time that a pony is a good choice is when solo diving. Without getting into the solo thing, when you don't have a buddy carrying your spare gas and reg you do need to carry it yourself. Again, solo diving is not for beginners and not for most experienced divers either.

Good buddy skills are much more important than a pony bottle.

 

[NEWreckDiver]

If you don't feel comfortable bringing it up by all means don't. However if you think that I dive in or speak from the perspective of a perfect world you've missed all my points.

I keep saying that we do a lousy job of teaching people to dive and every one keeps saying that it's good enough (and safe enough) for tourists and and casual divers. Then we hear all this pony bottle stuff.

The DAN reports and the accident reports I read just don't seem to support the idea that a pony bottle would significantly enhance safety.

Maybe the reports don't show support for it because of the presentence of the pony bottle, there wasn't an accident to report.

Not everyone can or wants to dive doubles. Getting seperated from your buddy happens. Other things happen. Why not have a pony bottle with you just in case.

I do not understand the aguments against having one. It just doesn't make since to me.

Now this is not a factor of teaching. I do not think this was the point of the question possed here. Instead of bashing the training agencies. Try filling in the gaps instead of telling us what is wrong. I think we know things could be better, I will give you that.