Becoming the second victim

[flots am]

Heading stuff off before it gets to be an emergency is good part of the training you get in a Rescue Class , but sometimes that is not possible ... you react when you decide to help, and tailor the help you can give, to the situation as it unfolds .. like trying to reach someone going down or up, and calling it quits after ascertaining that the risk has just become too great

If your buddy is already bolting for the surface or sinking off into the blue, you already missed the signs that he was having problems.

---------- Post added December 16th, 2013 at 10:29 AM ----------

You are making a fairly significant change to your claim. You said "Nothing can happen if you are trained well and you don't panic..." but now you are limiting it to things that happen frequently. I do agree with the general intent of your post that better training both prevents problems and enables divers to handle problems. However, there is no point in training where divers become perfectly able to handle all situations..

I added that because Dumpsterdiver and I have already had this discussion. I'm reasonably certain he's going to mention getting dragged down by a speared fish or getting an arm trapped in a rock or something else an OW diver shouldn't be doing. (this is the Basic SCUBA area)

While I find the perceived DIR requirement for a BP/W annoying, they do have excellent safety practices. I don't recall ever reading about a DIR diver that accidentally ran out of gas, or panicked and bolted for the surface or any of the other problems that regularly show up here for OW divers. That's because reasonably likely failures are engineered out of the process with training, planning, redundant equipment when necessary and well trained buddies that look out for each other.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

First, I don't think many would be able to simply watch without attempting to help - training or not. One more reason that diving with a buddy is more dangerous than diving solo.

... that's only true if one or both of you are too lazy to learn how to dive with a buddy ... which would cause me to wonder what else you're too lazy to learn. If you haven't been trained in the basics of rescue, you have no business diving solo, since the course is as much about how to keep yourself out of trouble as it is about helping someone else ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Agility]

To illustrate this: On a wall dive using Nitrox 36 your buddy fails to arrest their depth at your planned level (say 90'). They are slightly below you and are sinking rapidly with the bottom >300' below. How deep do you chase after them before giving up? FYI the MOD is 95 and Max (1.6 ata) 114.

I would try to catch my buddy above 45m (about 145ft) and establish neutral or slightly positive bouyancy as I have been to that depth without disabling narcosis in clear water and oxygen toxicity would not be my first concern.

Exceptional Exposures:
Oxygen Partial Pressure (ata)/Time (min)
2.0 ata/30min
1.9 ata/45min
1.8 ata/60min
1.7 ata/75min
1.6 ata/120min
1.5 ata/150min
1.4 ata/180min
1.3 ata/240min

from OXTOX: If You Dive Nitrox You Should Know About OXTOX ? DAN | Divers Alert Network ? Medical Dive Article

 

[DivemasterDennis]

There is no calculus of formula to tell you when to rescue and when not to rescue. There are a number of factors to consider, and consider quickly, when deciding what to do. I include these:

1. condition of diver in distress. Are they already past help or is there time to help them. Is it a strong your person or a 70 something person less likely to survive the damage already done? etc.
2. relationship to diver in distress: is this my child, my spouse, or other close family member or friend?
3. conditions affecting rescue: is there a current, sideways or down, that increases the risk; how much air do I have; what is the depth the distressed diver is at ( or will be when I get to them) what rescue assistance awaits at the surface or shore, if any, and so on
4. rescuer resources and skills: Is it all on me or do I have others to assist if we get the distressed diver surfaced? What surface help is available and how far away is it? Can I handle the distressed diver to surfaced them, or am I inadequate in myself due to physical condition, lack of training, my own stress level, or other factor.
5. what are the consequences to others if I I become victim 2? Am I putting others at unreasonable risk by attempting an ill advised rescue? Do I have little kids at home that need me?

There are other factors of course. Most reasons not to attempt a rescue present themselves pretty clearly- dive in down current is already at 180 feet and dropping at 4 feet per second and you are 60 feet above them and have 650 PSI. To pursue that diver is a death wish. However, and entangled diver who panics at 50 feet in calm water where I have 100 PSI or more in my tank will get my attention and assistance every time. Each would be rescuer is unique, as is each victim, and each circumstance. As a 60 year old well trained and experienced professional with current liability insurance, I hesitate to act only in cases where it is clear I cannot succeed. I admit I would accept greater risk to help Debbie or my daughter or my nephew who dives, than I would a stranger or casual acquaintance. But beyond everything in the way of rescue, whether diving with Debbie, or good buddy Charlie, or instabuddy, I am going to do a dive plan, review it with all who are diving with me, do a thorough equipment check (self and buddy), and discuss the dive and objectives to minimize any possible issues arising. Prevention is best.
DivemasterDennis

 

[Wookie]

snip...and entangled diver who panics at 50 feet in calm water where I have 100 PSI or more in my tank will get my attention ....snip
DivemasterDennis

I hope when you are at 100 PSI your attention is gotten.

 

[FinnMom]

Taking immediate action to help save another without regard to one's own safety is a pretty good working description of a hero

When things work out it is. A lot of the time they don't. One diver in distress is always going to be a better and a more easily solved problem than 2 divers in distress.

1 more vote for doing what you can. Admittedly a lot of us know we won't hold to that under all circumstances, but in general it's the plan that will get the best results.

It's great that you feel strongly about needing to help. Get yourself some training and you will be able to really make a difference, or at least know that you did what you could. Doing what you could isn't just what you did on site the day of an accident, it's the First Aid classes you took, the skills you practised and the information you made a part of your active memory. Do your homework and I hope you get to make someone's whole family incredibly happy you did. And better yet came home safe after doing it.

 

[digdug87]

This discussion reminds me of the annual conversation that my co-workers and I have among ourselves when we have our haz-mat responder and confined space training. The stats on the number of would be rescuers that become victims are staggering. For every initial victim there is an average of greater than one would be rescuer that becomes a victim, and in some cases there will five or six bodies stacked up from people trying to save someone else. I’ve had close coworkers tell me point blank, if you are laying out on floor in a hazardous environment, you’re going to die. We are taught that is the correct response, basically don’t add to the body count, don’t become another victim. In the end we all pretty much agree that a person really doesn’t know exactly what they are going to do until they are in that situation.
The conversation that usually follows is reaction vs response. After much cussing and discussing we usually agree on a couple of things. A reaction is when a person gets tunnel vision and focuses on the victim and loses sight of the environment and risks. Some people will call this an emotional response or a reflex. That a response is when a person or team has the knowledge, equipment, training and a plan to deal with the environment without putting themselves or others at risk. Is either, a reaction or a response, totally correct, or totally wrong probably not. A person can only try and make the best decision that they can within their experience, training, equipment available, and mental state.

 

[tracydr]

I would try to catch my buddy above 45m (about 145ft) and establish neutral or slightly positive bouyancy as I have been to that depth without disabling narcosis in clear water and oxygen toxicity would not be my first concern.

Exceptional Exposures:
Oxygen Partial Pressure (ata)/Time (min)
2.0 ata/30min
1.9 ata/45min
1.8 ata/60min
1.7 ata/75min
1.6 ata/120min
1.5 ata/150min
1.4 ata/180min
1.3 ata/240min

from OXTOX: If You Dive Nitrox You Should Know About OXTOX ? DAN | Divers Alert Network ? Medical Dive Article

Thank you for the excellent article. And, I would do the same as you. I would also add trying to get my buddies attention by banging on my tank, since the buddy is likely suffering from narcosis and that's the reason they didn't stop sinking.

 

[SailNaked]

Unfortunately when the genetic gods were giving out fight or flight responses, they forgot to give me a flight option. or maybe it was the USMC that removed it for me. I may someday drown with a buddy, you can tell my children that I was doing everything I could think of at the time not too and that I am not as smart as I think I am. now if I do not see you, well then sorry but there was this cool fish.

Just realized that we all expect to be the rescuer... lol.... well if I am the drowning dude, please be safe and save me if you can and if not then I will just get a little more bottom time.

 

[nimoh]

This discussion reminds me of the annual conversation that my co-workers and I have among ourselves when we have our haz-mat responder and confined space training. The stats on the number of would be rescuers that become victims are staggering. For every initial victim there is an average of greater than one would be rescuer that becomes a victim, and in some cases there will five or six bodies stacked up from people trying to save someone else. I’ve had close coworkers tell me point blank, if you are laying out on floor in a hazardous environment, you’re going to die. We are taught that is the correct response, basically don’t add to the body count, don’t become another victim. In the end we all pretty much agree that a person really doesn’t know exactly what they are going to do until they are in that situation.
The conversation that usually follows is reaction vs response. After much cussing and discussing we usually agree on a couple of things. A reaction is when a person gets tunnel vision and focuses on the victim and loses sight of the environment and risks. Some people will call this an emotional response or a reflex. That a response is when a person or team has the knowledge, equipment, training and a plan to deal with the environment without putting themselves or others at risk. Is either, a reaction or a response, totally correct, or totally wrong probably not. A person can only try and make the best decision that they can within their experience, training, equipment available, and mental state.

similarly, I took a surface ice rescue class last winter, and the instructor stated that most fatalities that result from people falling through thin ice are would be rescuers.