British wreck divers fined for retrieving artifacts

[Crass3000]

I was always taught not to grab things rom wrecks as it ruins the wreck for others to see in the future. It's kind of like ruining a reef. I think it's illegal in most parts in MN and lots of the Great Lakes but could be wrong. It is definitely frowned upon to say the least.

 

[OtherHalf]

One correction: this is NOT the "American" view. This is the view of a subset of divers in America, a subset primarily located on the northeast Atlantic coast.

The subset may primarily be on the NE coast, but not centered there. I'm originally from the midwest, and currently in Korea, and I can't say my locality would have changed my view on the matter. I think it's more of an American conservative view on fruits of one's labor and Governments' efforts to give the benefits of the labors of others to the a) unwilling to work themselves and feeling a sense of entitlement or b) political cronies who are already rich and want more.

But thats my opinion, and seeing as how this is the wreck, and not political bashing board, I'll leave it at that.

Some of the wrecks they stripped were warships which are protected in maritime law. I am a bit more strict on my views on that type of artifact collecting without the ownership nations consent, even though they are literally thousands of military wrecks and war graves. Run of the mill steamships and armed merchant vessels on the other hand is still fair game lives lost or not. Even military wrecks should be fair game if one puts the time and effort to locate them.

As a Soldier, I feel I have a plank on this topic:

The Army sells for scrap, or disassembles and re-purposes the parts of battle damaged HMMWVs (including those involving deaths). The official term is "command substitution," the common term is cannibalization. I appreciate the magnitude of lives being lost. That being said I'll volunteer for the firing line for the first diver that pulls body parts out of a wreck for his personal collection. The ship, the guns, the prop... they are only tools. Just like the weapon and NVD of a Soldier are re-issued: because they are only tools of the trade (ever wonder why Soldiers collect all the 'Sensitive Items' from a Soldier's room after he passes?).

Wrecks of particular historical significance (I'm thinking here of something like the wreck of the Arizona in Pearl Harbor) deserve protection, as do wrecks that are serving intended purposes (no stealing the steel from a wreck sunk as an artificial reef...). But wrecks that were otherwise generally unknown, I think they're fair game. Having been educated by Hickdive, I'd be curious to know if under UK law the diver who recovers artifacts and reports them is required to report the location of the wreck along with their artifacts. If so, it would seem to take away any impetus to discover new wrecks, let alone reporting such discovery...

 

[Ste Wart]

Having been educated by Hickdive, I'd be curious to know if under UK law the diver who recovers artifacts and reports them is required to report the location of the wreck along with their artifacts. If so, it would seem to take away any impetus to discover new wrecks, let alone reporting such discovery...

You do:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/222562/dg_185584.pdf


However as there are only 2 people who work for the RoW and they do not publish droits specifics, it doesn't make a difference

 

[OtherHalf]

You do:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/222562/dg_185584.pdf


However as there are only 2 people who work for the RoW and they do not publish droits specifics, it doesn't make a difference

Does the UK not have some variation of the US's Freedom of Information Act (FOIA)?

 

[Ste Wart]

Does the UK not have some variation of the US's Freedom of Information Act (FOIA)?

I've asked for old droits when doing Wreck research. The girls basically bin them after they're done with them.


EDIT:

2 women are the RoW

 

[OtherHalf]

I've asked for old droits when doing Wreck research. The girls basically bin them after they're done with them.


EDIT:

2 women are the RoW

Knowing this, especially if I could get legal assurances of protection of such information, I would be more comfortable reporting finds. Thank for the objective information.

 

[Jared0425]

All military wrecks are protected from salvage in maritime law, no matter who has sovereignty over their current location. The law that Hickdive refers to is the military war graves act the British enacted sometime in the 70's. The US followed something a little more lax in the 1980's early 90's by declaring any warships in US territorial waters or economic zone is under the protection of that nation. The biggest hypocrite case would be the selling of the USS Hamilton and USS Scourage in Lake Ontario for Canada which has forbid any divers diving them making them 2 out of the 3 banned shipwrecks in the Great Lakes after the Fitzgerald.

 

[mathauck0814]

I think it's more of an American conservative view on fruits of one's labor and Governments' efforts to give the benefits of the labors of others to the a) unwilling to work themselves and feeling a sense of entitlement or b) political cronies who are already rich and want more.

I've asked for old droits when doing Wreck research. The girls basically bin them after they're done with them.


EDIT:

2 women are the RoW

Knowing this, especially if I could get legal assurances of protection of such information, I would be more comfortable reporting finds. Thank for the objective information.

Haha so basically the balance of government and freedom are good with you so long as the agency du jour is understaffed and inefficient enough to let you do whatever the heck you want?

 

[Hickdive]

All military wrecks are protected from salvage in maritime law, no matter who has sovereignty over their current location. The law that Hickdive refers to is the military war graves act the British enacted sometime in the 70's. The US followed something a little more lax in the 1980's early 90's by declaring any warships in US territorial waters or economic zone is under the protection of that nation. The biggest hypocrite case would be the selling of the USS Hamilton and USS Scourage in Lake Ontario for Canada which has forbid any divers diving them making them 2 out of the 3 banned shipwrecks in the Great Lakes after the Fitzgerald.

The PMRA was passed in 1986 and no, not all military vessels are protected, certainly not in UK waters and certainly not outside.

For example, the salvage rights to the Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue were sold by the Admiralty to a German scrap company in the 1920's.

 

[OtherHalf]

Haha so basically the balance of government and freedom are good with you so long as the agency du jour is understaffed and inefficient enough to let you do whatever the heck you want?

Hardly. Hence my desire for legal assurances. And my appreciation that the files are destroyed rather than non-releasable to the public. I prefer that they arent creating a paper trail. Paper trails, historically speaking, always become public eventually...