Considerations around switching to a BP/W

[rombre]

And then people say that BP/Ws are not a complicated topic
Without all your help, I would be totally lost. The time you guys spend to explain things again and again in a lot of detail is just amazing - thanks again for that!

I understand that the problem in my case is just the huge variety of different diving that I want to / need to cover but it is hard to find the right wing ...

If we define my diving as:
warm water diving (3mm / 5mm / maybe 5mm + hooded vest; 12l / 15l alu / steel tanks)
future cold water diving (dry suit / maybe 7mm; 12l / 15l alu / steel tanks)

The summary is basically:
- For my warm water diving a 20lbs looks like a good choice generally, however is not ideal with 15l tanks (which is what I dive most of the time in alu or steel). There a 30lbs would probably be a better choice
- For cold water Tobin told me, that a 30lbs might not be enough and it could very well be that I'd need a 40lbs

This results basically in 3 different wings (20 lbs / 30 lbs / 40 lbs) to cover my (single tank!( diving in an optimal way. Now 3 different wings are surely not an option, and for now I'll probably only buy the warm water one. Leaving me with the option to a) buy a 20lbs one (which is a bit on the small side for the tanks I use the most) or buy a 30lbs (which might later just be a bit too small for the cold water diving and result in my having two wings within 10lbs size which also seems stupid ...).

 

[tbone1004]

they are no more complicated than any other bc's, the difference is unlike the BC's where you have the lift determined by the size of the jacket and most of them having excessive amounts of lift, you actually have to figure out what you need here.

If I had to choose two single tanks wings, I would probably choose a Torus 17 for warm water, and a Torus 35 for cold water. The Torus 35 has more lift at the hips which is important when diving with a weight belt.
If I had to choose a single all-use wing, it would be the LCD30, which is what I own. In my opinion, if you are doing a lot of local cold water diving, you should go into a twinset and then you choose the single tank wing for travel, and then you can either commit to a larger single tank wing for local diving, or a doubles wing.

 

[stuartv]

Honestly, a wing in the 20# range is a luxury item. And, having 3 wings just for single tank diving seems a bit ridiculous to me, too. I had 2 because I splurged for the 23# wing as a treat. And, now I've sold my DSS wing and am down to only the 1 wing for single tank with no plans to get anything else. Cold water just naturally goes with dry suits and double tanks.

And that is why a BP/W purchase SEEMS more complicated than an integrated BCD purchase. Those others just saddle everyone with a giant wing that's big enough for any single tank diving. If you want simple and a wing that will handle anything, go ahead and get a 35 - 40# wing. There is absolutely no reason you can't use that even for diving in board shorts with an AL80. It will work just as well or better than any of those integrated BCDs. It just won't be quite as a nice as a smaller wing.

The BP/W only seems complicated because you have so many options to fine tune your gear for specific scenarios.

If you are dead set on DSS, then get a Torus 26 and use that for everything until such time as you go for cold water and determine that you NEED a bigger wing.

 

[stuartv]

If I had to choose two single tanks wings, I would probably choose a Torus 17 for warm water, and a Torus 35 for cold water.

I agree with this. But, I have to say that that is based, in part, on my thinking that for most people warm water diving also generally equals fairly calm seas.

My personal most common warm water diving is going to wrecks off North Carolina. It's warm enough that when i dive a single tank it's generally a steel 120 (15l) in a 3/2mm suit. Diving there, it's not uncommon to be in 5 foot seas. When I'm out in that, like tbone mentioned earlier, I want to be able to get my head up a little higher out of the water. So, for warm water in those type of conditions, i would want more than a 17# wing. Thus why I have the 23.

But, diving in Hawaii or Coz, I've never experience seas like I have in NC. I haven't dived either place much, but I have the impression that they don't go out if the seas are that high. Well, I KNOW they don't where I dived in Hawaii. Anyway, if my warm water only meant 2 - 3 foot seas or less, then a 17# would probably be okay with me.

 

[cool_hardware52]

And then people say that BP/Ws are not a complicated topic

They aren't. If you avoid over thinking it. Divers have no issue with using exposure protection appropriate for the conditions, but somehow expect one BC to be ideal planet wide.

The summary is basically:
- For my warm water diving a 20lbs looks like a good choice generally, however is not ideal with 15l tanks (which is what I dive most of the time in alu or steel)

Tank selection plays almost no part in wing capacity requirements. Tank selection does play a part in the total ballast budget. A big negative steel cylinder with a thin suit or no suit is almost never a good idea.

A bigger wing is **Never** the solution to being over weighted. Changing components, i.e. tanks and or back plates is the correct solution.

For cold water Tobin told me, that a 30lbs might not be enough and it could very well be that I'd need a 40lbs

No, I told you that it is entirely possible that your cold water exposure suit could be 30 or more lbs positive, making a 30 lbs wing too small.

This results basically in 3 different wings (20 lbs / 30 lbs / 40 lbs) to cover my (single tank!( diving in an optimal way. Now 3 different wings are surely not an option, and for now I'll probably only buy the warm water one. Leaving me with the option to a) buy a 20lbs one (which is a bit on the small side for the tanks I use the most) or buy a 30lbs (which might later just be a bit too small for the cold water diving and result in my having two wings within 10lbs size which also seems stupid ...).

No. What I have repeatedly suggested is that you buy a wing based on what you know with certainty, and that is your warm water configuration. Then consider a 2nd larger wing once you know with certainty how buoyant your cold water suit will be. That's *2* wings, each optimized for a *known* set of circumstances.

As there is literally nothing more I can add to this discussion. I have already repeated more than once the exact advice I give to 2-3 people per day that are seeking a BP&W, usually for use in both warm and cold water.

Tobin

 

[cool_hardware52]

Comfort at the surface is not a function of wing capacity, it's a function of proper weighting.
A properly ballasted diver needs very little gas in their BC to get their chin out of the water.

Keep in mind that any portion of any BC that is above the surface of the water provides no lift as it is displacing no water.


Tobin

 

[rombre]

Guys, there's a bit of a misunderstanding there - probably because I express myself rather poorly on this (for me relatively new) topic.
I accepted the fact that one wing for everything I want to do might work but will not be ideal and discarded that option (fully got you on that point, Tobin).
I also understand Tobin's and tbone's point on focusing on what I know. I want to buy a wing for my warm water diving (with the given parameters) now - I will look into buying a second wing for cold water later. This might even be a twin - let's see how my cold water diving evolves, it is just starting.

If I had to choose two single tanks wings, I would probably choose a Torus 17 for warm water, and a Torus 35 for cold water. The Torus 35 has more lift at the hips which is important when diving with a weight belt.

If we focus on the warm water and forget about the cold one, don't we get back to the problem that we said a 17 (or 20) is borderline with my often used 20lbs tanks?

Honestly, a wing in the 20# range is a luxury item. And, having 3 wings just for single tank diving seems a bit ridiculous to me, too. I had 2 because I splurged for the 23# wing as a treat. And, now I've sold my DSS wing and am down to only the 1 wing for single tank with no plans to get anything else. Cold water just naturally goes with dry suits and double tanks.
[...]
If you are dead set on DSS, then get a Torus 26 and use that for everything until such time as you go for cold water and determine that you NEED a bigger wing.

A luxury I am willing to go for in this case Given it's my primary diving, I would like to have sth. as ideal as possible for my warm water needs. Am just trying to figure out if that's a 17/18lbs, 20lbs or 25/26lbs. Not dead set on DSS but it's my preference at the moment. It's pricey for me but it looks like a great rig with lots of supporters here and Tobin's support is great as well.

They aren't. If you avoid over thinking it. Divers have no issue with using exposure protection appropriate for the conditions, but somehow expect one BC to be ideal planet wide.

No Tobin - that was me at the beginning You and others successfully convinced me and I have accepted that I will need 2 wings. Am just trying to figure out what's the right warm water one now (Torus 17, LCD20, larger?)

Tank selection plays almost no part in wing capacity requirements. Tank selection does play a part in the total ballast budget. A big negative steel cylinder with a thin suit or no suit is almost never a good idea.
A bigger wing is **Never** the solution to being over weighted. Changing components, i.e. tanks and or back plates is the correct solution.

That was my thinking. Assuming I'm not terribly overweighted, there shouldn't be a big impact of the tank?
I will avoid all scenarios of a 3mm or less exposure suit and a 15l steel tank, my planning is for:
3mm with up to 15l alu
5mm with up to 15l alu or steel
5mm with hooded vest up to 15l alu or steel

No, I told you that it is entirely possible that your cold water exposure suit could be 30 or more lbs positive, making a 30 lbs wing too small.

That's what I was saying (or at least meant) with my statement.

No. What I have repeatedly suggested is that you buy a wing based on what you know with certainty, and that is your warm water configuration. Then consider a 2nd larger wing once you know with certainty how buoyant your cold water suit will be. That's *2* wings, each optimized for a *known* set of circumstances.

Again, am completely with you there. At the moment I am looking for the warm water wing. The cold water one will be for later.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Rombre, if you plan to dive in warm water with *either* a buoyant al 80, *or* a negative steel tank you don't need two wings, you need two different plates.

Tobin

 

[tbone1004]

@cool_hardware52 and I have a bit of a differing of opinions on wing lift and comfort at the surface. For me it isn't comfort at the surface, it's a weird teaching thing that in certain circumstances I have to be able to get much more of me out of the water that I normally do. He is 100% correct though that at the surface your wing should have not a lot more air in it than you have air in the tank.

For this, you can't really go wrong with any of the wings you have mentioned, so it's kind of a crapshoot.

 

[stuartv]

Just remember, the difference in volume between a 17# wing and 26 is 9 pounds, which is 4kg, which is 4 liters of water. So, the difference between the Torus 17 and the Torus 26 is if you took the 17# wing and expanded it enough to hold 2 x 2 liter bottles of soda.. It's really not that much.

With a SS BP and a steel 15l tank that is full, by the time you add a bit of weight for regs, tank valve, harness hardware, lights you may clip to it, a camera and reel you may clip to it, etc.., 17# is pretty marginal to float that rig. Especially if you happen to be talking about one of the really negative 15l tanks. Mine are only about 9 - 10 # negative when full, but there are some that are 16 # negative when full. From what you said (particularly about insisting on a SS BP), I would take that Torus 17 off my list.

The LCD 20 is better, but it's still not a LOT of capacity to float that rig and keep your head well out of the water if you're diving in a rash guard.

If you compare the LCD20 and the Torus 26, you're now only talking about less than 3l of difference in volume. And the Torus will probably hold all of that 3l in just the bottom part of the donut. I.e. I bet the sides and top of the Torus 26 are about the same size as the LCD20, which means - I THINK - the Torus 26 would probably be just as streamlined in the water. Or, at least, so close that you would NEVER notice the difference. And give you a nice extra margin of lift in case you happen to wear your 5mm with it one day. Or take a few bits of extra gear with you that add up to 2 or 3 more pounds than you are thinking of right now.