Determining the future of DIR

[Rainer]

I assume that you're referencing the 70' bottle? I know that my UTD CCR team mate does, infact, carry the same gases as the rest of the team. He may not use them, but he does carry them.

They aren't being carried out here (at least by the person that owns the agency).

In any case, that's really a minor issue in the grand scheme of why mixed teams aren't "DIR".

 

[PfcAJ]

The only electronics are the PPO2 monitors (Handset fails, who cares - It's typically not checked underwater anyways, so it most likely won't be noticed underwater. If the HUD fails, you go OC and make your ascent), There is an O2 and diluent addition block with QC6 connectors to jack in O2 or diluent. It lacks a switch block to jack in external stages, that is done via the diluent addition block. The stages and deco bottles also have external second stages, so that all gas is usable via OC. The added task loading comes in the form of monitoring your PPO2 (via the HUB, which can be seen by your team mates if you can see your CCR buddies mask). Since the system is completely manual, it takes practice to become proficient at, but I've seen it done successfully with some fairly task loaded dives (survey dives). It boils down to adding a component to your situational awareness. The PPO2 handsets are clipped off and other than checking them on the surface, I've never seen George look at them underwater.

All that is complexity above and beyond the rb80. More things to break = more chances of not being able to pull off the dive. If you're doing a dive requiring a rebreather, then you're probably several hundred bucks in the hole, plus the support guys who had to show up. Why make a difficult dive more complicated than need be? Blinky lights? Star Trek syndrome?

I'd like your input on why you feel that having O2, turned on, and up front are major issues. Is this from a cave diving point of view of not taking a bottle deeper than it's mod? For this application (CCR), I don't treat it different than any other bottle clipped to the side. If for some reason the O2 addition block failed, all you do is turn the bottle off and/or unplug the QC6, and perhaps go on OC (SCR is an option - but usually just go OC and thumb comes out). As a team mate, I would watch my buddy and check things only when he wanted me to (Think post or stage failures). If it's fixable, it's fixable. If not, then I give the "it's ****ed" signal, we situate as needed and make our ascent. Things like dealing with an OOG diver would be handled just like an RB80 diver.

O2 kills you as dead as any gun. One of the reasons we drop bottles at MOD is to prevent the possibility of a diver switching to a hyperoxic gas. In the ocean, having the bottle turned off and parked is the next best option. You're just one less step away from an incident with that bottle turned on. For what? The rb80 doesn't have issues with bad/old cells or o2 injection. Its just not an option with the rb80.

I'm not knocking the RB80 or it's success rates. I can only think of a single incident relating to the WKPP and the RB80 and their training probably saved that persons life. I would argue that the RB80 is reaching it's limits within the WKPP. - The reason that I say that is because of a dive report by Casey McKinley where he stated that they were using new canisters that were longer in length, so that they could get more scrubber material in them, so that they could get slightly longer BT durations out of them. I would agree that the UTD configuration has a couple added failure points over an RB80, but the same is also said about an RB80 comparison to OC. Based upon what I've seen (granted I'm not a RB diver), those failure points have been dramatically overblown on the various forums.

The bigger scrubbers and non-stock bellows have been around for at least 3 years now. Doing those dives on OC is utterly ridiculous. Fielding that many setup teams (and the teams needed to support them) increases the risk of incident exponentially. The benefits (and risks) of diving closed circuit greatly outweigh the benefits (and risks) of OC diving. If they can extend the use of the rb80 without adding additional failure points (btw, we're talking 12hour bottom times), why introduce the added issues found with CCR? DIR is about being as safe as possible, not magic carpets that take you to the end of the cave or some deep wreck.

And the old DIR idea still persists even in this discussion: If you don't need it, don't take it. If you don't need o2 injection, electronics, heads up displays, etc...why...take...it?

I'm in total agreement that having those differences on larger dives wouldn't be pretty, but honestly, are you going to jump in the water to do those types of dives with somebody that you don't know or haven't even been in the water with? I don't care if all the divers are GUE trained, there will be differences in the training from various instructors and even experience levels. I do how ever feel that those differences can be overcome with getting to know your team mates and doing a few shake down dives with them. A UTD Tech 2 diver is going to have a similar training experience from a GUE Tech 1 diver. I'd expect teams with those training experiences to be able to mesh pretty well. There will be obvious differences, but something that could be worked out pretty easily. At this point, that's has more to do with AG's history with GUE and how they relate to UTD. I expect, that eventually, there will be a pretty large divergence as the two organizations evolve to meet their future goals and needs.

Shake down dives are great, nothing wrong with that. But I don't want to have to completely rewrite my or your procedures just so we can go do a cool dive somewhere if we could just do it the same way from the gate. That's just a waste of everyone's time.

 

[rjack321]

The only electronics are the PPO2 monitors (Handset fails, who cares - It's typically not checked underwater anyways, so it most likely won't be noticed underwater. If the HUD fails, you go OC and make your ascent), There is an O2 and diluent addition block with QC6 connectors to jack in O2 or diluent. It lacks a switch block to jack in external stages, that is done via the diluent addition block. The stages and deco bottles also have external second stages, so that all gas is usable via OC. The added task loading comes in the form of monitoring your PPO2 (via the HUB, which can be seen by your team mates if you can see your CCR buddies mask). Since the system is completely manual, it takes practice to become proficient at, but I've seen it done successfully with some fairly task loaded dives (survey dives). It boils down to adding a component to your situational awareness. The PPO2 handsets are clipped off and other than checking them on the surface, I've never seen George look at them underwater.

I'd like your input on why you feel that having O2, turned on, and up front are major issues. Is this from a cave diving point of view of not taking a bottle deeper than it's mod? For this application (CCR), I don't treat it different than any other bottle clipped to the side. If for some reason the O2 addition block failed, all you do is turn the bottle off and/or unplug the QC6, and perhaps go on OC (SCR is an option - but usually just go OC and thumb comes out). As a team mate, I would watch my buddy and check things only when he wanted me to (Think post or stage failures). If it's fixable, it's fixable. If not, then I give the "it's ****ed" signal, we situate as needed and make our ascent. Things like dealing with an OOG diver would be handled just like an RB80 diver.

I'm not knocking the RB80 or it's success rates. I can only think of a single incident relating to the WKPP and the RB80 and their training probably saved that persons life. I would argue that the RB80 is reaching it's limits within the WKPP. - The reason that I say that is because of a dive report by Casey McKinley where he stated that they were using new canisters that were longer in length, so that they could get more scrubber material in them, so that they could get slightly longer BT durations out of them. I would agree that the UTD configuration has a couple added failure points over an RB80, but the same is also said about an RB80 comparison to OC. Based upon what I've seen (granted I'm not a RB diver), those failure points have been dramatically overblown on the various forums.

Just the fact that one person has all this crap and additional failure points while the other doesn't need it (since they are on OC) makes it bogus.

I expect, that eventually, there will be a pretty large divergence as the two organizations evolve to meet their future goals and needs.

Oh that's patently obvious already. Check out UTD's "sidemount" video its freakin' embarassing how crappy the trim is on their bottles and how many times they smack the ceiling. And how they are willing to go off the line in an area of soda straws where their bubbles are doing irrepairable cave damage. AND they have no clue that this is $hity cave diving. Its right up there with DSAT, "hold your buddy down while he shoots the bag" hilarity on their videos - if it weren't so sad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oRUMxfWAvA&feature=player_embedded

That's the agency head and one of his cave instructor on the video.

 

[amascuba]

How many stage bottles does a typical RB80 exploration dive use and at what point does managing all those bottles become unwieldy? I understand that their are safety bottles placed through out the system during a dive, but what about bottles that are actually used during a dive? That's the point where CCR ala UTD's configuration makes sense for WKPP level dives, in my mind.

Beyond that, our diving is fairly remote. We have access to compressed air. Other than that we haul in our own helium and O2, which we mix in the middle of a cow pasture. Minimizing the logistics of bringing many of the physical tanks across state lines also makes rebreather technology tempting.

On larger weekends, I bring two 200cf storage bottles of o2, two 200cf storage bottles of He, two sets of doubles, four AL80's, and a 40. Typically between dives we mix and run to the compressor. By the time you're back in the water about four hours has gone by.

O2 kills you as dead as any gun. One of the reasons we drop bottles at MOD is to prevent the possibility of a diver switching to a hyperoxic gas. In the ocean, having the bottle turned off and parked is the next best option. You're just one less step away from an incident with that bottle turned on. For what? The rb80 doesn't have issues with bad/old cells or o2 injection. Its just not an option with the rb80.

O2 is turned on and plugged into the injection block. The injection block must be manually operated - there is no constant addition. A stuck injection button or user error would be the only reasons why a UTD CCR diver would go hyperoxic and that alert would be seen quickly via the HUD. The situation would determine the divers action - flushing the loop or going OC.

 

[PfcAJ]

It comes down to taking 3 drives instead of 1, or something similarly inconsequential. You still need the OC gas (safeties), anyways. From my understanding, scooters are more of an issue than gas.

What goes on during those long haul dives is a little outside my paygrade, but I have a basic grasp of it. Enough to know that CCR isn't really the answer yet, and probably won't be for some time, and I am not convinced of there need for virtually any dive.

 

[LiteHedded]

Just the fact that one person has all this crap and additional failure points while the other doesn't need it (since they are on OC) makes it bogus.



Oh that's patently obvious already. Check out UTD's "sidemount" video its freakin' embarassing how crappy the trim is on their bottles and how many times they smack the ceiling. And how they are willing to go off the line in an area of soda straws where their bubbles are doing irrepairable cave damage. AND they have no clue that this is $hity cave diving. Its right up there with DSAT, "hold your buddy down while he shoots the bag" hilarity on their videos - if it weren't so sad.
YouTube - Fun Diving with the Z-System

That's the agency head and one of his cave instructor on the video.

wow
where has this little gem of a video been hiding

someone should show them the steve bogaerts video.

 

[rjack321]

It comes down to taking 3 drives instead of 1, or something similarly inconsequential. You still need the OC gas (safeties), anyways. From my understanding, scooters are more of an issue than gas.

What goes on during those long haul dives is a little outside my paygrade, but I have a basic grasp of it. Enough to know that CCR isn't really the answer yet, and probably won't be for some time, and I am not convinced of there need for virtually any dive.

If I had a CCR I would probably use it for various dives up here. Hauling tanks DOES get to be neigh impossible without slaves. Worst than just being far from a shop, I've been far from the truck (1km hike to the water each way anyone?). However, 99.9% of our dives can be done on OC.

 

[Blackwood]

It's a meaningless term at this point to me. People using it these days are either directly or indirectly trying to market something or sell you something...

I still find it useful.

Also, I have a bridge I'm looking to get rid of...

 

[Blackwood]

Oh that's patently obvious already. Check out UTD's "sidemount" video its freakin' embarassing how crappy the trim is on their bottles and how many times they smack the ceiling. And how they are willing to go off the line in an area of soda straws where their bubbles are doing irrepairable cave damage. AND they have no clue that this is $hity cave diving. Its right up there with DSAT, "hold your buddy down while he shoots the bag" hilarity on their videos - if it weren't so sad.
YouTube - Fun Diving with the Z-System

That's the agency head and one of his cave instructor on the video.

It appears that your comment was forseen and preemptively responded to

 

[lamont]

And how they are willing to go off the line in an area of soda straws where their bubbles are doing irrepairable cave damage.

I try hard to be agency neutral here because I'm the mod, but FFS.