Question DH Regs Questions

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Underwater Tourist

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I have been considering to purchase a DH reg (equipment with modern parts) for some time and almost ready to pull the trigger, but hoping to get some questions answered first.

#1 I have never used a rebreather so I cant really relate to when people say "position of the diver affects DH reg performance". Is it a negative? How significant is it? Again, since I haven't experienced that myself, any info will be very much appreciated

#2 Are there any limitations on tank pressure? Meaning, can I take a DH reg, put it on a 200-230bar tank and off i go?

#3 Perhaps a stupid one, but if I am donating air, does it affect the regs performance?

#4 It looks like there are 2 main sellers:
a) Home | Vintage Double Hose [currently not working]
b) Welcome to DiverDown Double Hose Regulators
anyone I missed?

#5 This question might require a longer answer, so a special thanks to the person who answers it! What would be "perceived" negatives of a DH reg (i.e. little things that are in reality irrelevant) vs "true" negatives (i.e. more significant cons that a future owner should be aware off?)

#6 Anything else important I should ask? :)
 
#7 Can the DH reg be installed upside down? So instead of the hoses coming from the top of the second stage, you flip it 180 degrees so they come down from the bottom. Visually, I think it will make for a nicer routing of the double hose as it can run closer to the shoulder (maybe add a piece of bungee on the shoulder bca webbing to keep the double hose from swimming away)
 
Vintage double hose diving is fun. I started with one and now have a couple nice ones that I rebuilt.And I'm always looking, even though I don't need another one. I got mine off ebay and did the work myself. They're not overly complex and pretty simple to work on. There is a ton of posts in the vintage diving section that will answer your questions, look for Herman among others, but I'll give it a shot.

1. Yes position has an effect on breathing. I find a slightly head up trim is best. What's more important is the position of the regulator can. It has to be located between your shoulder blades as close as possible to your body. A regular BC is NOT ideal for double hose diving.

2. Both of my regs are unbalanced and anything above about 2800 causes breathing resistance to go up. Once I get below 2200 things get nice, and at 1000-1800 mine breather very easily and smooth. With the unbalanced regs IP goes up as tank pressure decreases so breathing gets easier.

3. Donating air is a different beast than regular on SCUBA. You're sharing one mouthpiece. The reg preforms the same but you both have to be calm and in sync to make air sharing on a double hose practical. There is the ability to add an octopus on some models when using a special adapter on the hookah port, then things are easier.

4. I don't know about Diver Down Double Hose but I have done business with VDH and also Scuba Museum. Both of those have enabled me to rebuild my regs easily.

5. All my opinion but here goes.

Perceived:
Dangerous, you will die if you use that old stuff.
They breath bad.
You cant get parts anymore. (partly true)
No one knows how to service them.

Real (in my opinion):
Correct positioning is critical for best performance.
Harder to share air with.
Less ability for attaching second, inflators, and pressure gauges easily.
Some dive boats won't let you use them unless you have an octo and pressure gauge attached.
You will have to interact with people on a regular basis especially on beach dives. They'll all want to know what you're diving.

6. Do you have the extra money to spend when these start multiplying? It happens.

7. Not if you want good performance. If the regulator is placed correctly on your back, you'd kink the hoses when you brought it back up over your shoulders.

Check out the vintage diving forum using the search and you'll find all kinds of good info and advice. Neat pictures too.

Enjoy.
 
A bunch here, and links within to follow:


FWIW, I started with a Kraken, then purchased a completely updated and ready to dive older regulator, then started working on them on my own.

Once you understand them, they are just another regulator. The only real downside is parts and service. There aren't as many places to get parts, and also the supply of this stuff has been impacted by the pandemic. It was small manufacturing shops that make this low volume production stuff, and it currently is a big problem. The other part of the story is service. NOBODY except the small specialty shops are going to touch your equipment, so you have to accept doing regulator service yourself.

All that being said, these are robust devices, absolute work horses, and very simple to maintain and service.

They are my go to reg for a majority of my diving.
 
You pretty much can't beat this:


A great way to start. Ready to dive, all modern conveniences, complete parts availability, and top of the list in performance. Plus, the RARE (limited edition) RED HOSES!


(edit)
and it is gone.....
 
#1 I have never used a rebreather so I cant really relate to when people say "position of the diver affects DH reg performance". Is it a negative? How significant is it? Again, since I haven't experienced that myself, any info will be very much appreciated
Positioning effects can be a negative, but are generally just different. Bad is if the can (the reg itself) is not positioned properly (as Ghost95 said, between shoulder blades directly against your back). The VDH backplates are great for this, but I also use backplates I cut from a $5 cutting board. The "Different" aspect is that position of mouthpiece relative to the cans has a perceived work of breathing effect. If the mouthpiece is higher than the cans, it will feel like it is trying to feed you air (puff your cheeks out), but the exhale will take more effort. If the mouthpiece is lower than the cans, it will feel more like you have to pull the air in, but the exhale will be effortless. Ghost95's preferred slightly head up trim keeps the mouthpiece level with the cans, minimizing either effect.
#2 Are there any limitations on tank pressure? Meaning, can I take a DH reg, put it on a 200-230bar tank and off i go?
Depends on the DH reg. There are 2 factors to consider.

1) Type of reg; Single stage regs (like an Aqualung Mistral or a Healthways Scuba) are harder to breath the higher the tank pressure, so most wouldn't recommend them for over 200 bar at all, and they won't really come into their own until you breath it down to 100 bar or so.
Unbalanced 2 stage regs (Aqualung DAAM and the like) IP increases as tank pressure drops.... the US Navy used them on 3000 PSI tanks (208 bar) with no issues, but they will breathe better as tank pressure drops (but not to the degree of change a single stage will).
Balanced 2 stage regs (Royal Aquamaster, VDH cyclone, VDH Phoenix, Kraken, Voit Trieste) will maintain IP throughout tank pressure, and as such should be fine in that regard with any thing (within reason).

2) Yoke design; Early scuba gear was designed for 2250 psi tanks, and as such had thinner yokes. Later DH's had thicker yokes and tank pressure is a non issue in that regard with those, but with a skinny yoke it's a judgement call. I'll run skinny yokes up to 3000psi (208 bar), but some won't.
#3 Perhaps a stupid one, but if I am donating air, does it affect the regs performance?
Doesn't affect performance, but your options to donate depend on the reg. Without an octo, buddy breathing is the only option and is a trained skill. Single stage regs have no way to add an octo. I have octo's on almost all my DH regs, and when I dive with others and use one without an octo I bring a slung pony tank.
#4 It looks like there are 2 main sellers:
a) Home | Vintage Double Hose [currently not working]
b) Welcome to DiverDown Double Hose Regulators
anyone I missed?
The Scuba Museum (as Rhwestfall pointed out).
To be fair, though, if you pick a relatively common one (such as a DAAM or RAM or Mistral) they aren't rocket surgery and parts are mostly available. And when nobody has a part, some of us will find a way. Look into Home | Vintage Scuba Diving Community Forum forum see the lengths people will go to sort them out and help each other in keeping these regs in the water.
#5 This question might require a longer answer, so a special thanks to the person who answers it! What would be "perceived" negatives of a DH reg (i.e. little things that are in reality irrelevant) vs "true" negatives (i.e. more significant cons that a future owner should be aware off?)
Some will claim old=inferior... but fundamental reg design hasn't changed in roughly 60 years. The Aqualung RAM first stage is parts interchangeable inside with all the aqualung balanced diaphragm first stages up to the 2008 Titan.
Some will claim the breathe like garbage.... most who say that haven't used one positioned correctly, or just don't appreciate that "different" isn't always "worse" (see above comments on positioning effects).

True negatives; Some dive ops won't let you use them unless they have all the accessories. Short yoke regs won't be able to use a banjo fitting (to hook up a pressure gauge), but I have some tanks with vintage valves that have an HP port just for diving those regs. Very few shops will service them for you, so it's almost necessary to learn to do it yourself (but it isn't hard and doesn't have to involve a lot of special tools). Parts availability in the long term is not guaranteed (but some of us are working on it). They are addictive.... I bought one to try out, and now I have 5 that are dive ready and 7 more in various stages of "I'll get to it"!
#6 Anything else important I should ask?
Can you link up with someone who dives them to show you the ropes? If you're ever down my way (lower Alabama/Florida panhandle) I'd be happy to link up and share what I know. I self taught from reading old manuals and forum posts, and that works, but the learning curve is far easier with help on hand.
How to clear a DH reg (there's no purge button). 2 step process and step one can be done 3 ways.
1) Clear the mouthpiece itself:
a: exhale through it if you have the air to exhale
b: hold mouthpiece above can level with opening down (this will cause a freeflow and having opening down will keep water out of the mouthpiece) then rotate the mouthpiece into your mouth.
c: "pump" your cheeks in and out, each "pull" will pull a little air from the intake side, and each "push" will push a little water out the exhaust side, and quickly clear it that way.
2) Clear the water from the exhaust hose. Roll slowly left while exhaling. This allows the water to follow the low point in the hose around to the actual exhaust valve in the can.
#7 Can the DH reg be installed upside down? So instead of the hoses coming from the top of the second stage, you flip it 180 degrees so they come down from the bottom. Visually, I think it will make for a nicer routing of the double hose as it can run closer to the shoulder (maybe add a piece of bungee on the shoulder bca webbing to keep the double hose from swimming away)
In theory yes, but probably not a great idea from a clutter/freedom of movement stand point, and would make the "induced freeflow" method of clearing the mouthpiece far harder. On the other hand, my 12 y.o. doesn't like how floaty the hoses are so I put some stainless steel rings on them as hose weights to offset it, and now he loves them.

Respectfully,

James
 
I have been considering to purchase a DH reg (equipment with modern parts) for some time and almost ready to pull the trigger, but hoping to get some questions answered first.

#1 I have never used a rebreather so I cant really relate to when people say "position of the diver affects DH reg performance". Is it a negative? How significant is it? Again, since I haven't experienced that myself, any info will be very much appreciated

#2 Are there any limitations on tank pressure? Meaning, can I take a DH reg, put it on a 200-230bar tank and off i go?

#3 Perhaps a stupid one, but if I am donating air, does it affect the regs performance?

#4 It looks like there are 2 main sellers:
a) Home | Vintage Double Hose [currently not working]
b) Welcome to DiverDown Double Hose Regulators
anyone I missed?

#5 This question might require a longer answer, so a special thanks to the person who answers it! What would be "perceived" negatives of a DH reg (i.e. little things that are in reality irrelevant) vs "true" negatives (i.e. more significant cons that a future owner should be aware off?)

#6 Anything else important I should ask? :)

#7 Can the DH reg be installed upside down? So instead of the hoses coming from the top of the second stage, you flip it 180 degrees so they come down from the bottom. Visually, I think it will make for a nicer routing of the double hose as it can run closer to the shoulder (maybe add a piece of bungee on the shoulder bca webbing to keep the double hose from swimming away)


1-they do not like being head down, they do not like being on their backs. The diaphragm is much farther from your uvula *the rough position in your body where you actually perceive work of breathing* and that means that everything is exaggerated. It's not an issue for most divers but @Luis H and I have had many discussions and I am one of the few that actually dives flat flat and I am coming to terms that I can't do that as comfortably in my double hose as I can with other regulators. It's a learning curve but not a real downside.

2-it depends on the first stage but my Kraken regularly sees 3700psi/260bar and it doesn't care. It is normally set up as DIN but has a heavy yoke that I will use on it as well. If it has a modern yoke or is DIN then it has the same limitations as any modern regulator, but if it has a vintage yoke on it then you should do your homework on that specific yoke as some of them are questionable at even 3000psi

3-no

4-if you want to actually dive these things, the Kraken is really nice and a huge upgrade from the old models, especially with all of the requisite ports on it.

5- if you don't have a DSV it's a PITA at the surface as it is prone to freeflow. If you get water in the exhale loop you have to barrel roll to purge it. It's VERY picky about tank positioning so if you are short and diving with long tanks it's awkward. People ask you lots of questions on dive boats which is annoying.

6-strongly recommend buying the flat plate from @Bryan@Vintage Double Hose if you go that route.

7-it doesn't care what orientation it is in, but you certainly will. The cans need to be between your shoulder blades, they are angled up for a reason. You can put loop hose weights on the loop to keep it on your shoulders
 
Thank you for the information, everyone! That certainly helped a lot.

After reading through the links you guys sent, it looks like the best option is Argonaut Kraken as it combines all the benefits of an older style reg and also has all the negatives fixed. Bummer it is not longer made
 
Bummer it is not longer made
Hopefully just a pause..... It might be a bit of time, but I don't think he has thrown in the towel just yet.
 
Thank you for the information, everyone! That certainly helped a lot.

After reading through the links you guys sent, it looks like the best option is Argonaut Kraken as it combines all the benefits of an older style reg and also has all the negatives fixed. Bummer it is not longer made
I don't think the Kraken has anything over my hotrod Phoenix. I've had both.
 

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