Dive Master vs Master Scuba Diver

[TMHeimer]

PADI's Master Diver was used to be FREE of charge.
Some of the courses are useful eg. Deep, Multi-level, Nitrox, Search and Recovery.

Yeah. I paid $41 in 2007. Agree, but I don't know about Multi-level. I'm absolutely no expert being a square profile shell collector guy, but I just "follow my computer" if it's REALLY multi-level. Agree that some courses are useful and others that count toward PADI MSD devalue the title/rating if you will. BUT, in 2007 I got the free MSD Backpack, which I STILL use to collect beads down here on the Gulf Coast during Mardi Gras.--See many former posts on the MSD THING!

 

[rdrining]

Not to jump in to the middle of the debate, but from what I've heard reading on here and talking to buddies who are PADI and SSI divers, it sounds like I had learned everything required for the PADI master diver cert in my NAUI basic open water class and a few club dives with my local dive club... I did my NAUI open water then the next year did NAUI nitrox, and then went a few years with no classes but diving as much as I could then when I was ready to pay for my next class my instructor told me I already knew enough to skip the AOW and go with the master diver class, so that is what I did last summer. I took my NAUI master diver class with two PADI AOW/nitrox certified people, both of them were baffled by how much more in depth the NAUI class was, they struggled but both managed to pass... Personally from what I've heard I believe you will learn more in a NAUI master diver class than you probably will in a PADI instructor course (talking to instructors who have done both PADI and NAUI instructor courses)... NAUI will accept your PADI AOW to let you in to a NAUI master diver class (might require you to dive with an instructor first to review your skill/comfort level first), but if you want to increase your knowledge and thus safety diving I would suggest the NAUI master diver class, then if you want to become a diving professional to try making money in the dive industry go from there in whatever direction you want to go...

 

[TMHeimer]

rdrining: Well, we WERE talking about the PADI MDS. NAUI MSD, as WE ALL KNOW, has ....uh....all the stuff that the PADI Divemaster Course has "minus the teaching aspect"...SO, kudos to NAUI. You say "I took.. NAUI MSD with 2 PADI AOW/Nitrox Cert. divers who were baffled...." Are you kidding? Have you read the zillion posts about what AOW means with ANY agency? Yes, as has been debated before, the Naui MSD has all the theory/physiology, etc. as does the PADI DM course. And a Naui DM ranks above a NAUI AI. So there are differences. I've got absolutely nothing against NAUI. If I wanted to switch alliances it would be to SEI. But PADI has been fine for me. MSD has it's problems. DM course, admittedly has been "dumbed down" theory-wise (though apparently not practically-wise) since I took it in 2009. But you are talking about AOW people------what's that? PADI "AOW and Nitrox" certified people--no offense (to ANYONE): they're NOBODY (for purposes of this conversation)--I did that my first 3 months!

 

[scubadada]

So....this is a 2008 thread, good to see nothing has changed on SB in the intervening 8 years.

Training is a personal experience, I feel sorry for those who complain they participated in bad courses, perhaps they chose bad instructors. I was 1st certified in 1970 by the LA County Underwater Unit, the course was likely more comprehensive and required more dive experience than any of the current OW courses. I was recertified by PADI with my 12 year old son in 1997, it was a perfectly good course on Grand Cayman. I bought my PADI MSD card in 2005 and it reflects very good courses for AOW, Rescue, 5 specialties, and it required EFR at that time. I don't recall what it cost. My MSD card also has my nitrox certification on it, only card other than my SDI Solo card that I've ever had to show for recreational diving.

I took the non-certification course, "Dive with the Naturalist" (Fish ID/Behavior), with Jerry Ligon (RIP) at Bonaire Dive & Adventure in 2008, best half day of education I've ever had. I've used what I learned ever since. I took an Equipment Specialist course at one of my LDSs. The whole day course taught me many things that have saved me and many others considerable inconvenience and lost dives. Both of these types of courses have been frequently criticized as worthless on SB. In 2005, I took the Hyperbaric Medicine course from Dick Rutkowski in Key Largo. My understanding of nitrogen and oxygen exposure, decompression, and treatment of DCI increased very significantly, highly recommended.

To each their own

 

[Peter69_56]

So....this is a 2008 thread, good to see nothing has changed on SB in the intervening 8 years.

Training is a personal experience, I feel sorry for those who complain they participated in bad courses, perhaps they chose bad instructors. I was 1st certified in 1970 by the LA County Underwater Unit, the course was likely more comprehensive and required more dive experience than any of the current OW courses. I was recertified by PADI with my 12 year old son in 1997, it was a perfectly good course on Grand Cayman. I bought my PADI MSD card in 2005 and it reflects very good courses for AOW, Rescue, 5 specialties, and it required EFR at that time. I don't recall what it cost. My MSD card also has my nitrox certification on it, only card other than my SDI Solo card that I've ever had to show for recreational diving.

I took the non-certification course, "Dive with the Naturalist" (Fish ID/Behavior), with Jerry Ligon (RIP) at Bonaire Dive & Adventure in 2008, best half day of education I've ever had. I've used what I learned ever since. I took an Equipment Specialist course at one of my LDSs. The whole day course taught me many things that have saved me and many others considerable inconvenience and lost dives. Both of these types of courses have been frequently criticized as worthless on SB. In 2005, I took the Hyperbaric Medicine course from Dick Rutkowski in Key Largo. My understanding of nitrogen and oxygen exposure, decompression, and treatment of DCI increased very significantly, highly recommended.

To each their own

So how do you feel about geting a card for $50, no training, no effort, just pay the $50 and get the card? No course to do, just buy your way in. For the inexperienced it seems like the next progression. Its only when you make the effort to do something like DM that you realise the trap they set for money. Have no problem with doing courses with guts in them and skills to learn or experience to pick up, but a Master Diver card??????????

 

[scubadada]

So how do you feel about geting a card for $50, no training, no effort, just pay the $50 and get the card? No course to do, just buy your way in. For the inexperienced it seems like the next progression. Its only when you make the effort to do something like DM that you realise the trap they set for money. Have no problem with doing courses with guts in them and skills to learn or experience to pick up, but a Master Diver card??????????

Very constructive post. Exactly the pompous, arrogant, condescending message my reply was aimed at, not uncommon on SB. Nobody forces you to buy the MSD card, it's a personal choice, why be so critical of the decision because it is not for you? The card reflects all the requirements to earn it. Your DM status likely did nothing to improve your diving skills. It may have helped you gain some commercially oriented expertise in order to fullful the requirements of DM. It certainly did not teach you tactful, considerate communication.

Leave egos at the door...?

 

[Peter69_56]

Very constructive post. Exactly the pompous, arrogant, condescending message my reply was aimed at, not uncommon on SB. Nobody forces you to buy the MSD card, it's a personal choice, why be so critical of the decision because it is not for you? The card reflects all the requirements to earn it. Your DM status likely did nothing to improve your diving skills. It may have helped you gain some commercially oriented expertise in order to fullful the requirements of DM. It certainly did not teach you tactful, considerate communication.

Leave egos at the door...?

My previous post was not about anyone except myself. What I stated was how I felt after going through the process. It was NOT a shot at you in any way.

It wasn't about ego's, it was about inexperience and naivety (mine) at the time. A new diver just starting out (not aware that scuba board existed), thinking the MD card was the next natural step in the process of diving. The "what do I do next" syndrome. You have no idea why I chose to become a DM. You know very little about me and yet you chose to attack me and deride me, and then call me pompous and arrogant, all because I question my own choice about the MD card and its value and suggest to others that its a waste of money and effort?

You talk about being tactful, suggesting that I earned my DM (in some way), but that it did not improve my diving skills, all based on the fact you have never dived with me, don't know me. You tell me I am not tactful or have considerate communications? Look in the mirror before you make that statement. My post was a discussion on the merits of the MD card, yours was a personal attack on me.

I have not attacked anyone here in this post at all. All I did was to make a statement that in my opinion, that the MD is a waste of money (from first hand experience). You are the one forming and stating opinions about people here who you DO NOT KNOW.

 

[Centrals]

Having completed the five required courses and still have to pay for the MSD card!!!! What a rid off.
Would I pay for it back in 1998/9? Certainly NOT.
It should be FREE for being a good customer/sucker!

 

[Peter69_56]

I personally think its a marketing ploy, and a good one from a simplistic corporate view. From that perspective you cant fault it. Little if any real outlay for easy money for the organisation should consumers chose to get the card.

From a moralistic point of view, one would hope the consumer gets better bang for their buck, but sadly no. A sign of the times perhaps, what did Gecko say "Greed is good". "The end justifies the means".

 

[Martin G]

Hey gang, I think it's helpful to keep ego's healthily in check everywhere including this discussion, I think you two just had a small miscommunication. As a longtime Diver but noob to this board I'm very familiar with both PADI & NAUI - originally certified through NAUI. I think it's worthy of note to remember (and not just speaking as a professional trainer) any classes are only as good as the curricula, the instructors teaching them and the work a student puts in to digest and retain the material. Remember folks - this is a lot of fun but NOT without its dangers - Good training is key..

As for me I've been canyoning, paragliding, bungee jumping and white watered 5's so I like adventure and grew up on a boat so getting certified to dive was a no brainier. That said in my experience and imho NAUI tends to want to to certify smart situationally aware competent divers and PADI may be less interested in that as they are at making a sale that happens to get people in the water. I'll cite the name changes loosening the training required for anything after their Open Water I (true, this likely prompted NAUI to make a similar name/course change for marketing competitiveness), numerous conversations I've had with PADI divers of all skill levels including those with little to plenty of advanced training as well as instructors and found them under-skilled, especially the recent grads especially seemed to posses little usable real knowledge; sit time, Archimedes principle, basic physics/ physiology ( yes-with a few exceptions, for sure). But especially the glaring fact that the vacation resorts that certify you in a half a day or even a day are unsurprisingly nearly all PADI - they love $. I do feel as though I was required to learn way more in my 8 week OW1 NAUI course (3 hours each week) than any open water 1 PADI certified diver I've ever met.

Does that mean PADI stinks? Absolutely not and I'm heartened some folks have had thorough training experiences with them. I'm so grateful for my NAUI training --perfect example my OW1 checkout dive - I grew up on the water in S.Fla though I didn't get certified until I was in my 20's. My first dive of 3 that day was set for the Atlantic ~120' and of course the stranger I just met, paired to be my buddy took right off as soon as we got wet. I'm at an amazing beautiful wreck al alone at about 115' and I notice the tiniest of bubbles from behind me.. While at depth I took off my BC to check out my gear and saw the leak was at my 1st stage where it screwed to the tank - invisible until I was that deep. I want to unscrew it and re-seat it and do an equipment check' which I would, but, you guessed it- no buddy around. So I do something I was trained to do -an emergency ascent - that just happened to be at nearly a hundred and twenty feet my first time trying it (ya just sing a song!)

2 Amazing fun smart really thorough teachers passed along great knowledge from my OW1 (that couldn't assimilated in one day) and that seemed to eclipse PADI divers with more certifications that I had & the confidence I earned with it- would an underprepared diver have the confidence and know how to remove their gear and want to fix a problem at depth? Maybe.. Is this just one stupid example? Sure..but scuba diving IS dangerous & requires solid training. I think exceptions can be found everywhere but on the whole imo PADI likes making sales and NAUI likes training smart divers. Just.One.Person's.View.. (Oh, & I hope y'all don't think you paid a quater and got a dollar's worth :~)