Diving off Private Boats

[FredT]

The laddder may be the most difficult to achieve as that can be costly. We'll figure something out.

The ladder on a low freeboard boat can be as simple as a rope with a loop on it tied to a thwart. I've used that several times on small whalers and ribs. Make up a couple of tag lines with clips to hang the gear on in the water, then swarm over the side either swimmiing up seal fashion or hang a foot in the loop and come on over the side. IMNSHO Seal fashion is easiest.

Higher freeboard means a more complicated ladder, or a floating platform tied off to the side.

FT

 

[mempilot]

Take a third person to man the boat while you and your buddy and under. If the anchor pulls will your under, you can find yourself in a predicament. This happened down in the Keys a few years ago. The guy and his gal floated for sometime before they were pulled from the water with hypothermia. The CG found their boat adrift many miles away.

What part of the country are you in? There are always people looking to share expense to get out on the water.

A boater safety course for both would be good. Learn how to rig the boat for diving. Lines, etc...

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Nonsense........

Nice to see you are your same old prickly self.

The point was you can get into trouble accepting donations for expenses and can get in more trouble if what you are doing gets considered as a commercial operation. And I am not just concerned with the feds but also with the insurance carrier for the boat.

When you are divvying up the costs for the trip you are correct that it needs to be voluntary, but it needs to be voluntary to the point you don't even ask for reimbursement as you do not want to even create the expectation of payment. Also you need to consider your share of the expenses and be sure you do not accept too much in terms of reimbursement - ie, you need to pay your fair share of the costs.

Also, if their participation allows you to take a trip that you would other wise not take, you are still at risk of being viewed as benefitting from the trip even if you only receive enough money to cover the other passenger's share of the expenses.

I used to fly a lot of co-workers around for conferences etc and we would share the expenses, which were clearly defined as they were hourly rental expenses for the aircraft. BUT even the fact that I got to fly and log pilot in command flight time on complex aircraft was viewed as something of value to me and consequently was viewed as "compensation" which lacking a commercial pilot license was a potentially large problem. It was over enforcement of the regs and generally bull*** but the end result is I don't do that anymore and the same potential risk exists when operating a boat.

Problems can also develop if you start stealing potential customers away from another operator (as they will most likely *****) or if you unintentionally find yourself running a regularly scheduled service (ie, all the local divers know you leave the dock every Saturday morning at 8am.) as the line between a recreational trip and a scheduled charter then gets pretty thin.

Any form of compensation or reimbursement can also cause you problems in terms of liability insurance coverage (be sure to check the fine print in your policy carefully) and most insurance companies will look for any reason to deny coverage if they are facing a liability claim. It's another excellent reason not to accept any money until after all the divers get back to the dock alive.

 

[Genesis]

This is simply not true with regards to recreational vessels to the degree you're positing.

I have extensively researched this matter, and the language is clear in the law involved - and it is black letter law.

I've talked to the USCG personally about this as well, and as I said, it simply isn't an issue. There is NOTHING wrong with splitting fuel and operating expenses - nothing whatsoever. There is also nothing wrong with your friends bringing food and beverages aboard.

There is no way that your expenses in operation of a boat are limited to the fuel you consume. No chance in hades. So long as you do not take an arbitrary amount of money as a condition of carriage, that is, people voluntarily contribute to the actual costs of the voyage (which of course cannot be reasonably determined until you return to the dock), you are well within the safe harbor provisions of the law. This is true even if you go out with three or four friends and at the end of the day they fill your entire tank (e.g. you pay for none of the fuel); you're STILL in the clear, as the operational cost of the vessel over that period of time is in no way represented by fuel burn.

That you run every Saturday isn't an issue either. If you work Monday through Friday, and dive Saturdays, and your boat runs every saturday the weather is reasonable, you're still fine.

In reality what happens if you truly do things on a voluntary basis (that is, you're doing things within the law, not trying to run a "back door" charter service) is that you'll take your best guess on fuel consumed for the day, make it known what that is when you get back to the dock, and everyone gives you whatever they wish.

Your "enforcement" is limited to not inviting someone who gives nothing (or far too little) on the next trip. You're not taking them out for money - they're your FRIENDS. If they don't stick around to wash up the boat and act like friends, you don't take them the next time!

Where you can get in trouble is if you start telling people "I'll take you diving for $50 for the day." That is clearly a "for-hire" operation.

If some commercial outfit tries to make trouble for you, they would find themselves on the wrong end of a really nasty civil action - at least they would if it was me they wanted to play with. I know where the line is and stay WELL on the "right" side of it, and am more than happy to make a LOT of trouble for anyone who tried to cause me problems for their pecuniary benefit.

Insurance is an entirely different matter, but real marine insurance companies have no problem with this sort of thing, as its done literally every day. I've yet to go out on ANYONE'S boat (other than my own of course) and not hand the owner some cash when we get back in for fuel. This is not just a common practice, its "how its done" with privately operated vessels, and no real marine insurance company is going to have a problem with it.

If you don't have real marine insurance (and no, companies like State Farm do NOT count) then you might indeed have something ugly in your policy - check it closely. Then again, check it closely anyway - if you don't have agreed value insurance, environmental coverage and the rest that you get with a real marine insurance carrier, you need to switch to one for completely different reasons.

Civil aviation is an entirely different matter - I've glanced at those rules but have not looked extensively at them, as I don't fly. But friends of mine who do have told me that technically I cannot put fuel in their plane if they take me somewhere without them being technically in violation of the rules regarding their non-commercial private-pilot's license.

That provision IS in the USCG regs and was EXPLICITLY added to cover this situation.

 

[DawgPaddle]

Does anyone have an image of, or precedure for setting up, a typical granny line setup on smaller boats? I can draw up something from memory of diving off boats in Joisey and the outer banks, but don't want to miss anything.

Thanks

 

[Genesis]

If you're anchoring, then this is what I do....

I tie off the granny line to the anchor line, then let out enough anchor rode so that the knot goes underwater.

I then trail that back to the stern on whichever is the downcurrent side (so it doesn't go under the boat!), leave it a bit loose (so it goes several feet beyond the transom) and cleat it off.

From the same side, I typically then run (from the stern cleat) a current line out as well - usually 50 to 100' of line - so you have something to hang onto in a current while waiting your turn to board.

 

[2Dive4fun]

I made a nice sturdy dive ladder for my boat last summer. I will take some pictures and post it on the DIY.

 

[FredT]

The granny or chicken line runs from slightly to significantly under the surface on the anchor line, to beyond the entry point on your boat's layout. The line should be a floating one of either specta or polypro. The line should also have enough slack to allow a diver to grab the line before rolling or stepping off the boat in extreme surface currents.

Deployment on a boats anchoring in several depths requires the hook to be snugged off, the granny line attached to the mooring line with an appropriate clip or knot and the anchor line released and the rode let out to bring the knot to the desired depth.

Line connection to the rode can be:

1. Permanent loops on the rode with clips on chicken line in cases where the anchoring depth is relatively constant.
2. a spliced continuous loop separate from both the line and the rode that is quickly installed with a larkshead as the rode is being run out and the chicken line clip cloipped to it, then removed in reverse order before anchor recovery.
3. The chicken line is simply tied on to the riode with a rolling clove hitch or larkshead.

The other end of the line is tied off to a cleat near the ladder location. That cleat and the chicken line should be strong enough to support your entire diving crew hanging on it in the heaviest current and roughest sea you would consider diving in.

The method you use should be worked out to what works best on your boat in the seas and conditions you dive. Be aware that too short a line, or connecting the line to the rode too close to the surface, can cause bruises in heavy seas. Boats hurt when they land on you.

FT

 

[Scubakevdm]

Hi

A buddy of mine who just started scuba classes, last night in fact, owns a twenty-two footer and I was wondering if there are any legal issues about diving off of his boat. He won't be doing commercial ops or anything, just a couple of friends wanting to dive off of it.

If we have a Dive Flag, is that all we'll need to be legal for diving?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

You know, this poor guy asked a pretty simple question.

 

[Scubakevdm]

P.S. I am an idiot, every time I see this thread title I think it says "Diving off Pirate Boats". I just thought I might share that with you guys.