DM Dilema

[AzAtty]

In general, you do not have a duty to disclose facts about a situation to a governing authority. Despite what we are taught about being good citizens, in most cases you are not required to "tell on someone" who is engaged in an improper course of conduct.

However, in some cases you can have an obligation to disclose facts. It appears that PADI may have a rule that requires certain disclosures, so consider this: if you become a PADI DM, and you know that another DM did not meet standards, you may have an obligation to report him or face consequences yourself. Admittedly, that's speculation on my part, since I do not have access to the PADI standards and regulations.

If you need other reasons to help you convince your fellow candidate that he shouldn't falsify his application or logbook, here are a couple others:

1. Professional liability insurance. He may be required to certify that you have made X number of dives. If he lies, he may get coverage, but the insurance company may cancel his policy or deny coverage in the event of an incident.

2. Personal liability. If he is sued because of an accident or other problem, someone WILL investigate his diving history. If it comes out that he falsified his logs to enter DM training, that fact could damage his case. Additionally, it is possible that such conduct could be considered grossly negligent, reckless or even intentionally wrongful, and could expose him to a greater award against him.

3. Dive shop relations. If the LDS finds out that he lied about logged dives, he's going to upset them. It may also cause the LDS problems with their own relationship with PADI or insurers.

I have thought of doing DM training as well. However, I have not been able to find any of my old logs. I have been diving for 15 years, and the LDS wouldn't even question whether I have sufficient dives to start or complete training. My personal policy is, though, that unless I have a piece of paper with a legitimate signature or a computer log entry, I don't have a dive that I can count toward prerequisite dives. That's just my policy based upon my assessment of the risks involved, to say nothing of personal integrity.

Others have recommended confronting the candidate first, then speaking with the LDS if the person won't come clean. That's a good idea. If you feel comfortable diving with this person (which I sort of doubt), you might offer to help them log good quality dives. Good luck.

 

[SubMariner]

farakhan

My advice is let this diver spend the money to get certified, and let's hope the instructor see's this misrepresentation for what it's worth and makes the divemaster course long and grueling for him.

Oh, so as long as it doesn't directly impact on you personally you could care less? You "hope" that it will be "caught" up the line? Talk about "not wanting to get involved"! Would you have the same attitude if YOU were buddied up with this diver?


AzAtty

However, in some cases you can have an obligation to disclose facts. It appears that PADI may have a rule that requires certain disclosures, so consider this: if you become a PADI DM, and you know that another DM did not meet standards, you may have an obligation to report him or face consequences yourself. Admittedly, that's speculation on my part, since I do not have access to the PADI standards and regulations

As a PADI Instructor I can assure it is a PADI Standard that if a member witnesses or has knowledge of a violation of standards that they MUST report it or they are in violation themselves.

Let's put it this way: if we dive professionals don't police our own sport, the Gov't will. Do you really want that?

~SubMariner~

 

[redacted]

HarleyDiver once bubbled...
I think instead of telling someone else, you should confront your friend. Tell him that if he lies you will not take the class with him, you will not dive with him, and you will never respect him.

If he blows you off & fakes his log anyway, then you know what he thinks of you, and should no longer have any question as to what to do.

Explain to him that now that he has told you, you just can't let that happen. Tell him that if he doesn't do the right thing then you will have to. No reason for you not to take the class as you planned.

 

[DivePartner1]

AzAtty once bubbled...
In general, you do not have a duty to disclose facts about a situation to a governing authority. . . .However, in some cases you can have an obligation to disclose facts.

Well, a DM is a professional certification. If a licensed professional knows another has professional has defrauded the certifying board or is otherwise unqualifed, a duty does exist.

It may not be as clear as it is with lawyers, accountants, doctors, actuaries, etc., since a 'certification' not issued by a legally mandated authority doesn't carry the same weight. On the other hand, it sounds like PADI has this rule as well. The 'friend' who lies about his qualifications has no business taking the class--just like a med student who lies about attending college.

If the initial poster here doesn't want the unpleasant task of blowing the whistle on his dishonest friend, maybe he should just re-think the whole thing?

If you are a DM or instructor, this will not be last time you'll be in the unpleasant position of telling some goofball what they don't want to hear. One of the joys of any profession is telling people what they don't want to hear, even if you know they'll probably fire you.

 

[Bonnet Ray]

I wouldn't have any doubts about letting the DI know about this chap. His attitude shows that he doesn't really care about other divers he just wants to get his DM. How can he have the experience he needs if he hasn't complete the dives required (however limited that might be)?

If he passes the DM course and then something serious happens how are you going to feel given that the information you have could have changed the course of events. With more experience he may well be a good DM but his attitude stinks right now and you can change that.

Take responsibility and let them know this is what he is doing, you might feel like the bad guy for a while but in the long term you know this is the only right thing to do. I've had to do this (not in the diving world) and it's not nice but it is the right thing to do. he off loaded this information on to you (prehaps to make him feels a bit better) but you have got to pass it on.

As a potential good DM you know you have to take this further.

 

[ppo2_diver]

Hey everyone,

I talked to the instructor who will be teaching the DM class about this guy. What he is going to do is give this guy the opportunity to prove himself, without letting him know that I spoke to the instructor. He is going to work with this guy, in private, to demonstrate the 18 required skills needed. He is also going to go to the local quarry to dive with this guy to see what kind of a diver he really is. He is calling this open water stuff a "Divemaster Orientation". If they guy proves he is qualified, then he will be allowed to take the DM course. Otherwise, he will not let him take it.

 

[SubMariner]

He is going to work with this guy, in private, to demonstrate the 18 required skills needed. He is also going to go to the local quarry to dive with this guy to see what kind of a diver he really is. He is calling this open water stuff a "Divemaster Orientation". If they guy proves he is qualified, then he will be allowed to take the DM course. Otherwise, he will not let him take it.

Firstly, there is a difference between what a diver must have as a pre-requisite to TAKING the course vs. what the diver must attain in order to ACHIEVE the DM designation. These are NOT the same thing.

For example, to START the course they have to have at least 20 logged dives verifying experience in deep, night, etc. By the END of the course they must have 60 logged dives. There are also various academic, watermanship, and scuba skills they must achieve.

In addition, Divemaster Candidates (DMCs) are not expected to be at "demonstration quality" in their skill circuit, as this is a course with a very high learning curve. However, they will be taught the proper way to demonstrate skills and be expected to have attained this level of competancy in order to attain DM status.

IOW, it's not as easy as the Instructor saying "He didn't know how to hover, so I didn't accept him as a DMC".

~SubMariner~

 

[Diversauras]

Capable of the skills or not, he lied his way in, and now he is going to think he fooled everyone and got away with it, and he fooled him self into thinking he is better than he is. Seems there are no winners here.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

There's really two issues that come to my mind ...

First and foremost, this guy isn't being honest with himself, let alone the instructor. With most divers, even 60 dives is barely adequate to get comfortable with the kind of skills proficiency you need to work with students and new divers. This guy shouldn't be counting dives, he should be working hard to improve the skills he'd going to need to be an adequate DM in the first place.

Second, I think there's a fundamental problem with a program that requires a set amount of dives as a criteria for something like this (especially one as low as 20 dives), rather than focusing strictly on the requisite skills. An in-water entrance exam would be a far more effective way to weed out unqualified candidates ... not to mention that it'd be far more difficult to fake.

In this case, the guy's already demonstrated that he's going into it for all the wrong reasons. If he feels the need to cheat, what's he going to do once (if ever) he becomes a DM? The fact that he would even consider doing something like this demonstrates that he's patently unqualified for the position.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[AliKat]

Well, looks like you already made your decision. I have to say, I don't agree with the LDS, and I would find another place to my DM.

I would have started by confronting my "friend" and letting him know that I felt what he was doing was wrong, wrong, wrong, and that I would not take a DM class along with him. If this "friend" persisited, I would then let the instructor know I was dropping out and why. I guess with no real proof, the instructor really can't do much, but YOU know and can choose not be a party to any of it.

And would you still consider diving with this guy?? Actually do you still call him a friend? If he dishonest about this, he is probably dishonest, period.

There is no set time to completing DM, so why does he feel he needs to have "logged" 60 dives before he starts? He is really missing the point, and probably doesn't understand what being a DM really is. The reason behind having had to completed a certain number of dives (without arguing about if 60 is too few or not) is that the more dives one has, the more likely the diver will have confronted situations out of the ordinary. If he fakes these dives, and doesn't give himself a chance to encounter a situation or two before he is the DM and in charge, well...I wouldn't want to be one of the divers he was ever responsible for.