DM's/ instructors on vacation.

[Splash-X]

As a certified rescue diver you have no legal obligation to help anyone in trouble. Moral obligation maybe, but not legal. I am a rescue diver, instructor, firefighter, and a paramedic. Even if someone drops dead in front of me on a dive boat, legally I can just sit there and watch. I don't have to do a thing..... The only diference is if you are being PAID to act in an emergency response capacity. So if you are being paid as a rescue diver, DM, instructor, etc then yes you have to act accordingly. However, remember rule one "Rescuer safety first". If it is too dangerous for you to help, don't. There is no law that says you have to risk your life to help someone. Hate to say it, but it's better to have one dead diver and the end of the day then two or more.

I would have to disagree. As to my post above, if you are trained in all of the areas as you have stated you do have an obligation to assist someone in need if you have the capacity to do so.

If you are an instructor and you have two people on a vacation dive on the same boat as you and you hear them planning to go to a depth of 150ft you better speak up. Your training as an instructor should set off an alarm. You can't simply look the other way at something you KNOW is wrong.

Paid or unpaid, do you have a capacity to assist in a situation? If the answer is yes and you fail to do anything I'm going to bet that you would be hauled off to court. I also bet that your certification as an instructor would be suspended and I'm sure your paramedic career would also be at risk. You are a dive professional and should carry yourself as one.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

c. Anyone's level of "due care" [legaleze for how you are judged in responding in an incident] is related to one's training. An ER doc is held to a higher standard of "due care" when she helps at an accident scene than a "mere civilian" -- but maybe not as high a standard as a para-medic. In a scuba incident, a professional (DM/Instructor) will be held to a higher standard than a nubie OW diver just because of the differences in their training.

@Peter Guy: I think it's worth noting that as soon as the ER doc offers to help at the accident scene and makes his credentials known, a duty to treat the patient/victim has been established. Then, he should be providing a level of care that is consistent with his level of training and experience. If the ER doc were to pass by the accident scene without committing to help, he would have the same duty as any innocent bystander passing the scene -- to notify EMS by calling 911.

We can all probably agree that what is legal differs from what may be ethical and/or moral.

In my first year of med school, we were asked to work through "impaired physician" scenarios which do have some relevance in this discussion: You are a cardiologist. You are on vacation in transit on a plane. Since you are off-duty, you are enjoying yourself by having a couple of alcoholic beverages. Out of the blue, you hear a request for a physician over the plane's intercom. You discover that a passenger is complaining of chest pain. What do you do?
Would your response change if you were a medical intern with minimal experience?
Would your response change if the patient were a friend or a loved one?
Would your response change if you hadn't been drinking alcohol?
Things to think about...

 

[joker31]

As a Paramedic I work directly under a MDs license (Medical Director). I am only ALLOWED to work as a paramedic at work. If I do anything beyond a basic 1st aid/CPR class thn I would loose my paramedic certifiction.. trust me that is beaten into me the first week of paramedic school. as for the situation you proposed I can and would say something to those divers, however, I can not make them do anything. If they choose to dive to 150+ feet I can not physically stop them. If I do that is assault.... Not that it ould go that far. I am just talking about how the rules are written. And yes they can sue me. You can sue anyone for anything.... But again as an instructor/ rescue diver/ etc. there is NO LAW that says you have to hel. If there were it ould be on page one of your rescue book... Trust me this is what I do for a living at BOTH of my jobs.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

Paid or unpaid, do you have a capacity to assist in a situation? If the answer is yes and you fail to do anything I'm going to bet that you would be hauled off to court. I also bet that your certification as an instructor would be suspended and I'm sure your paramedic career would also be at risk. You are a dive professional and should carry yourself as one.

@Splash-X:"Capacity to assist" and "duty to assist" are two separate issues. I applaud your attitude, though, since the world would be a better place if more people adopted your willingness to help.
Once again, what is legal is not the same as what is moral and/or ethical...or what will give the best outcome to everyone involved.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I do not hide my status. It sometimes keeps me from having to buddy up with someone when I want to dive alone or even better if the op says I neeed to buddy up with Joe Schmoe since I'm an instructor and he's a new diver I can say "sure, you are comping me this trip right or I'm gonna charge ol Joe 25 bucks a dive to watch over him."
Usually I get to dive by myself in peace or with someone of my choice not the ops.
Especially if it's a dive where I have a specific objective. A shallow reef dive just looking at fish I'll pretty much buddy up if the diver asks me, with the understanding that I will not cut my dive short if they suck thru an al80 in 30 minutes. That also usually gets em to find another buddy.

 

[Splash-X]

As a Paramedic I work directly under a MDs license (Medical Director). I am only ALLOWED to work as a paramedic at work. If I do anything beyond a basic 1st aid/CPR class thn I would loose my paramedic certifiction..

And you don't think that you would also lose that certification if a fellow diver was in cardiac arrest on a boat and you simply "stood by and watched"? Point of the matter is you have training to possibly save a life and if you stand by and take no action your training is completely useless.

@Splash-X:"Capacity to assist" and "duty to assist" are two separate issues. I applaud your attitude, though, since the world would be a better place if more people adopted your willingness to help.
Once again, what is legal is not the same as what is moral and/or ethical...or what will give the best outcome to everyone involved.

While a judge may not hold you liable for a death if you were present, your training agency may view that in a completely different manner. If you were in a way able to prevent an incident and you neglected your duty as an instructor or dive master to your agency I suspect they may revoke your status.

 

[Jim Ernst]

I show My Open Water card, Though when I was in the Bahamas I had forgot to switch cards and had only my Instructor card to show, So I made it very clear to them that I was there as A diver and NOTHING more.

 

[fisheyeview]

I show My Open Water card, Though when I was in the Bahamas I had forgot to switch cards and had only my Instructor card to show, So I made it very clear to them that I was there as A diver and NOTHING more.

You dive?

 

[joker31]

And you don't think that you would also lose that certification if a fellow diver was in cardiac arrest on a boat and you simply "stood by and watched"? Point of the matter is you have training to possibly save a life and if you stand by and take no action your training is completely useless.


I totally agree. Trust me I would help. I would not just sit there and watch. But the initial question was wheather or not there is a LEGAL obligation... And the answer for all of us on vacation is NO....

 

[Splash-X]

@ joker31 - The degree of liability depends on your involvement with the situation and your level of training. I wouldn't say there is no legal obligation but I would suggest that anyone cover their own butt by making sure they carry them self in a professional manner and don't hide behind an "open water" card. If someone does sue all parties involved in the accident, your qualifications will be called in to question putting you at risk for being liable depending on the situation.