Dry Suit inflator hose Questions

[SDAnderson]

IzzyTahil once bubbled...

Reefraf - when the time comes, i'd be getting an inflation system - lowering the IP makes alot of sense to me...is this a common practice?

The worlds a big place and as soon as I say yes, someone is going to pop up with an objection based upon what their instructor supposedly told them in class last weekend. That said, IMHO it should be. Reducing the IP reduces the airflow through the regulator and valve, thus making it easier (and giving you more time) to deal with a free flow. In cold water, a lower IP pressure also helps to minimize free flows caused by expansion cooling. You don't want to drop it so low that you can't inflate your suit, but somewhere in the 90 - 110 psi area seems to work well. It's very common among technical divers in my neck of the woods - that I can state with certainty.

While we're on the subject, I'm going to call "bul**hit" on String for several of his comments:

(Regarding drysuit inflator hose routing under the right arm) Thats how i route mine, under BC shoulder strap and under my arm. No problems at all with it. I have my BC inflator and octo on the left, dry suit hose and main reg on the right. Stops hoses getting crossed.

Never mind the dangling alternate in your photo, there is a reason the alternate is routed to the right - that routing keeps it from tangling in the BCD inflator. I have a hard time believing that BSAC (or any training agency) taught you to route like you are. Routing the drysuit inflator to the right solves a problem (tangling with the alternate) that you have created and it does not work perfectly for you. Reinventing the wheel is hard work, typically ends in inferior results and confuses everyone, which is dangerous.

(Regarding whether or not the LP BC inflator connection is a "standard" hose) Hmm sort of. "Standard" doesnt mean one size fits all, different manufactures have different fittings and often wont bind to others. Exactly the same issue with BCs. We quite often have to play reg juggling on a small boat if a diver tears a suit or has a BC problem so they can do another dive for this reason. There are only certain combinations of all our kit that work with each other.

Again, I don't know much about diving in Europe, but in the States the "standard" BCD connection is a 1/4" NPT quick-disconnect. Although there are a few others in use (for instance ScubaPro uses a different quick-disconnect with their Air2's, which are as much regulator as BCD inflator) it really is "standard." The clusterfudge you describe on the deck of the boat argues strongly for standardizing and not reinventing the wheel just to be groovy.

(Regarding storing drysuits with the zipper open) Not according to the instructions that came with mine or the instructions of several others ive seen....The reason for my comment is ive never seen one here that says zip needs to be open.

A check of a couple of owners manual shows that DUI and Andy's both suggest storing with the zipper open, as does Otter, according to dbulman. Not that this is a vote, but what are you diving that says different from so many others?

Steven

 

[String]

reefraff once bubbled...

While we're on the subject, I'm going to call "bul**hit" on String for several of his comments:

Never mind the dangling alternate in your photo, there is a reason the alternate is routed to the right - that routing keeps it from tangling in the BCD inflator. I have a hard time believing that BSAC (or any training agency) taught you to route like you are. Routing the drysuit inflator to the right solves a problem (tangling with the alternate) that you have created and it does not work perfectly for you. Reinventing the wheel is hard work, typically ends in inferior results and confuses everyone, which is dangerous.

Dangling alternate is quite simply because after the first dive of that day the person hauling my kit back onto the boat snapped the clips i normally use. I make no apology for that.
My dry suit inflator goes right for the reasons i described and i can see nothing wrong with it. An Apeks first stage swivel valve which has my octopus reg and my BC inflator coming left and the 2 right hand ports have my main reg and dry suit inflator. Alternate has to go on the left to avoid twisting its short hose when donating. The under-arm routing is neat and far better than any other method (plus im not about to take my valve out to attempt to turn it around). Why am i reinventing the wheel? Why would anyone possibly be confused? Why is it dangerous ? Lets have some explanations if youre going to resort to insults so at least we can debate it.
Out of an admittedly very small sample size out of my last dives, 2 people had a right underarm routed hose and 2 had a left.

Again, I don't know much about diving in Europe, but in the States the "standard" BCD connection is a 1/4" NPT quick-disconnect. Although there are a few others in use (for instance ScubaPro uses a different quick-disconnect with their Air2's, which are as much regulator as BCD inflator) it really is "standard." The clusterfudge you describe on the deck of the boat argues strongly for standardizing and not reinventing the wheel just to be groovy.

Industry standardising would be a good thing but thats not the issue here. I know my Mares inflator wont work on a Buddy jacket or a ScubaPro for example and the other combinations of that. People buy their own kit and thats just a problem you have to deal with if you need to swap kit. Likewise for drysuits, Northern Diver wont fit in my Diamond and others for example. There is no common standard. It'd be nice if there was but there isnt.

A check of a couple of owners manual shows that DUI and Andy's both suggest storing with the zipper open, as does Otter, according to dbulman. Not that this is a vote, but what are you diving that says different from so many others?

Diamond for starters.

 

[Ender]

String once bubbled...


...Alternate has to go on the left to avoid twisting its short hose when donating.

Got to agree with String.
If you're using standard rec setup, routing your alternate on the right side means (unless you have a reg that can be breathed from both sides, like most Poseidons) that the hose will be S shaped. That not only means it will be shorter, but also it will be pulling the regulator out of whoever's accepting it mouth. In a strong current or swell, you have a good chance that the the OOA person will loose the reg at some time.
Of course, it means it would be much harder for _you_ to breathe it, but there's only very few instances where you'd need (on rec standard, one 1st stage, short hose) to do it anyway.

When you donate it from the left side, the hose is C shaped and the regulator comes to acceptor's mouth in much more natural way (coming from their right side).

The issue of tangling with inflator hose is pretty much non-issue, because
- you have your inflator bungied/velcroed to your BC strap and pretty short to the boot, don't you? Ergo it doesn't dangle.
- you route the alternate underarm to a a clip, so it doesn't even come close to the inflator. And no, the fact that it's underarm doesn't hinder while donating at all

Before I migrated to a long hose setup, I was wearing my alternate on the left side and during 150 dives it never got caught on the inflator hose, or even come close to it.

Regards,
Vlad

 

[SDAnderson]

First, let me apologise to String for being overly harsh and somewhat impertinent. Kinder really is better and I wasn't. Sorry. At the risk of hijacking this thread, I'd like to continue this discussion in a more friendly manner - although time constraints mean that I'm going to need to break this down into smaller chunks.

Alternate Hose Routing:

Routing the alternate regulator to the left side allows the donor and the out of air diver to face each other directly at close quarters without an uncomfortable "S" bend in the hose. Which raises the question, would a rescuer ever want a victim to be directly facing them at close quarters? The short answer is NO.

There are two kinds of OOA situations: (1) where the OOA diver is panicking, (2) where the OOA diver is not panicking. If the OOA diver is in a panic, the last place you want him is directly in your face. Establishing eye contact tends to alleviate panic and can be an important part of a rescue but having a victim directly in your face makes it too easy for them to interfere with you and your equipment. This is basic water rescue stuff, but flailing arms and hands can and do cause injury, rip masks off faces, yadda, yadda. Ask any lifeguard about the dangers of coming into direct, face-to-face contact with a victim. Being kitted up doesn't necessarily make you safer than a swimmer, it means that there are that many more things for a panicking diver to grab, break, etc. and that you are far less nimble. The first rule of rescue is don't become a victim.

Routing a short hose to the right allows the rescuer to face a victim (panicking or otherwise), but the "S" bend tends to force an offset from a direct face-to-face position. By grabbing each other by the right forearm, divers reduce the "S" strain of a right side routing, still allow for eye contact and yet establish a little removal that reduces the risk of the rescuer becoming a victim.

Additionally, routing a short hose to the left makes it very difficult for a rescuer to effect any control position other than face-to-face with a non-functional diver. Right side routing with a short hose means that a victim can be turned, facing away from the rescuer with the alternate coming over his right shoulder in a "normal" configuration, and easily controlled while being towed or swimming. This is the preferred position for any rescue and it's nearly impossible to achieve with a left routed short hose. Try swimming a non-functional diver (either panicking or unconcious) while maintaining their airway, keeping their regulator in their mouth, managing the bouyancy on two BCDs and two drysuits and controlling an ascent - it's near impossible done properly, let alone face-to-face or side-by-side.

In the event that the OOA diver is not panicking, both left and right side routings allow for swimming comfortably to an upline or other exit point. Right side routing means that the divers will assume the same towing position discussed above, which means that should the OOA diver begin to panic he is already in a position where the rescuer can easily establish safe control of him. Left side routing means that divers have to learn and practice an additional side-by-side swimming position as part of rescue procedures - and we are all practicing this stuff on a regular basis, right?

Routing the alternate to the left side makes it very uncomfortable for a diver to use his own alternate should he need to. Some note that a failure of a primary is an infrequent occurence, but then, so is an OOA situation. If it isn't, you need to find some new folks to dive with. Hose failures, sand, ice, all lead to primary failures and in my experience this happens nearly as frequently as an OOA emergency.

Even if you're connecting a drysuit inflator to the first stage, you only need four LP connections: primary, alternate, BCD and suit. There aren't many regulators out there that can't accomodate this many, with two LP ports running right and two running left - and if this is the problem the solution would seem to be to buy a new regulator. I don't know which Apeks regulator String is using, but they make a great line. To the best of my knowledge (I own both DS4 and ATX100 first stages) they all have at least four LP ports and the purpose for the swivel is to make hose routing easier - not more difficult.

The issue of tangling the alternate hose with the BC inflator is pretty much a non-issue until you need to be using both. The tanglies that potentially result can become life threatening and managing them requires attention and needlessly bumps the task-loading - better to separate them.

Finally, I've (pretty much) avoided the whole DIR long hose discussion and will (pretty much) continue to do so. Let me just say that personally I believe the long hose is far superior to either of the short hose methods and I'll leave it at that.

Steven

 

[Ender]

reefraff once bubbled...
There are two kinds of OOA situations: (1) where the OOA diver is panicking, (2) where the OOA diver is not panicking. If the OOA diver is in a panic, the last place you want him is directly in your face.

Based on the panicked OOA situation I was either participant in (and it wasn't me being OOA) or heard about, panicked OOA diver doesn't flail around, but either shoots directly for the surface, or goes for your primary.

If they go for the primary, I will be less comfortable for a short while, but that's ok - when I was diving with this setup, I was well aware I may breathe the reg upside down and given the shape of the reg it didn't upset me at all (and I have tried it few times).

...swimming. This is the preferred position for any rescue and it's nearly impossible to achieve with a left routed short hose.

This is unnecessary unless the victim is unconcsious. If they are unconscious and I find they are OOA, I would not force my reg into their mouth, because it's very likely that they are drowned and breathed some water in. Me forcing some air in would likely make the situation worse. If they breathed lungful of water, I wouldn't be able to do it anyway - most likely case unless they are so disciplnied as to be able to hold breath to the point where they pass out.

If I wanted to do it (i.e. they would be OOA, unconscous but with reg in their mouth - say deep water blackout), I could still do it with my old reg from the left side, as for them it wouldn't be any less or more comfortable and I would have to be holding the reg in their mouth anyway to make sure it stays there.

If the diver is OOA and conscious, I want them to have eye2eye contact, so I can provide reassurance.
Also, we have to coordinate our actions and communication is much easier when we can see each other.
Especially when I'm diving with a relatively new diver, or not my usual buddy.

position as part of rescue procedures - and we are all practicing this stuff on a regular basis, right?

About as regularly as practicing towing uncounscouis diver while he breathes off your alternate. Or doing conscsious ascents with only touch communication.

When I used to have this configuration, I had tried the emergency scenarios a few times (so I could think it out). I was also aware that it was slightly different to what other people had, so I have always run throught it with whoever I was diving with before dive, and made sure they were (at least on the surface) comfortable with my setup.

to. Some note that a failure of a primary is an infrequent occurence, but then, so is an OOA situation. If it isn't, you need to find some new folks to dive with.

The most likely failure for your primary is a free flow. If you have one 1st stage, you may not be able to breathe off your secondary in between one and two minutes (depending on the reg and whether you are able to kink/knot the hose, what is freeflowing etc). So, you're absolutely right in saying that it's about as frequent as OOA - because in a majority of situations you'll be OOA fairly quickly.
While the reg blocking is theorethicaly possible, I haven't heard anyone ever experiencing this - i.e. to block second stage where a repeated purge would not clear the problem - or cause a freeflow.

Let me just say that personally I believe the long hose is far superior to either of the short hose methods and I'll leave it at that.

You won't get any disagreement on this from me. Once I switched to long hose I will never come back. Mind you, I found a couple of interesting points on long hose OOA swims as well (like - should OOA swim on left or right side? behind or in front of?)

Regards,
Vlad

 

[SDAnderson]

Ender, you and I arguing the pro's and con's of two systems that we (including sylvester, who started this thread) have rejected seems silly. I think rather than trying to defend either set-up, it might be better to explain the long-hose system we have both apparently adopted - but let's not hijack sylvester's thread any further.

Sylvester, hopefully you got your questions answered to your satisfaction. Sorry for derailing your thread, hopefully you got your questions about drysuits anwered. If not, you might repeat the question for us dummies.

Steven

 

[sylvester]

Folks, I got my answers, those of you who helped thank you. The rest of you well I enjoy reading some of your posts, parts of them are entertaining. Again thanks to all and I hope you all enjoy diving what ever configuration you are comfortable with as long as its safe.

May Santa bring you all, a nice shiny new tank to scratch up.

 

[grouchyturtle]

Hey where can I get that small Argon bottle filled?

Actually where can I get the bottle in the first place?
I can't remember ever seeing a small bottle like that at any LDS.

Are there any guidelines as to what type of reg to us on it. Does anyone make some sort of smaller 1st stage designed specifically for this (since you really only need that one LP connection).

 

[Doc Intrepid]

The small 6 cu ft tanks come in (at least) two different types or systems.

One, by Abyss or Abysmal (same company) is pretty slick. Very small, smallest on the market, but a tad different in design. Good stuff at:
http://www.abysmal.com/web/products/hardware/argon.html

Second is a normal 6 cu ft bottle, get it with either DIN only or DIN/Yoke combo valve at:
http://divesales.com/tanks/index.html

With the latter you use a DIN reg, OPV, LP inflator hose. With the former you use their valve/hose, it comes as a (very small) set.

Abyss makes great stuff. Second site has some of the best prices on (alum) tanks I've found, and they are good to work with (I've bought tanks through them).

OMS also makes an argon system in an 8 cu ft steel tank with an odd, proprietary valve. If you have weighting issues this might be something to look at, but its far more expensive and heavier than the alum 6 with no significant other advantages that I can see.

My .02 at least,

Doc

 

[grouchyturtle]

About how long is a full 6 cu ft tank good for?

Where can you get an Argon fill?