Gear Advice - Scubapro X-Tek Form Tek Harness

[Jim Lapenta]

These are the guidelines I teach for all my classes when it comes to gear. While your choices do meet some of them a number of things jump out at me as far as the choice of BC goes and I will note them in under each category.

1. Safe and Reliable - no brainer as any BC or BPW fits here
2. Comfortable and Well Fitting - Sure looks comfy, all that unnecessary padding that will add to the weight you'll need to carry and does it fit you or do you have to fit it?
3. Provide for adequate redundancy without being excessive. - serious over kill on d rings which are not adjustable on the shoulders. unnecessary sternum strap and quick releases
4. Configured for self sufficiency and self rescue - does not meet this if you'd need to cut yourself out of the harness
5. Simple and Streamlined - no, It is overly complicated with quick releases, too many d rings, webbing does not appear to allow for easy replacement, harness appears to be bolted to the plate rather than threaded through, adds unnecessary expense to repair or replacement
6. All accessories and valves easily reachable - N/A
7. Allows for Buddy Assist and Rescue - Again heavily padded straps could hinder rescue attempt where cutting the harness is required, Poorly placed d rings may also present difficulties when removing gear or allow for confusion as to what to unclip when trying to remove the harness.
8. Has a Low Drag Profile- Streamlined - N/A
9. Adaptable to the Divers Needs - BIG RED FLAG HERE! Shoulder d rings not adjustable, harness cannot be modified without significant effort or possibly compromising the integrity of it. D rings cannot be removed without cutting them off. Why are straps bolted to the plate? Appear to not be able to adjust their angle or position. As Baby Duck said these guys are clueless.
10. Adaptable to the Diver’s Objective - Again no if you need to modify the harness. It also does not appear easy to add a can light to the harness and have it easily detachable.
11. All Equipment Identifiable by Touch and Location - This is up to the diver
12. Standardized with Fellow Divers Yet Versatile to Meet the Needs of the User - Again no, it is not a standard hogarthian set up most common to divers using this type of BC.
13. Equipment Placement is balanced and Instinctive - not as easy to do since much is set and you must adapt to the BC. As opposed to setting it up perfectly for you from the beginning.
14. Any Changes have been made Gradually and with Careful Thought - little practical thought went into this design
15. Diver is open to Improvement to his/her Setup - while the diver may be he/she is limited by the basic design of the rig. This should not be the case
16. All Cylinders are Properly Labeled with the Gas Mixture, MOD, and the Diver’s Name - N/A

Why is the shop pushing you towards this? Simple, it is likely what they are making the greatest margin on. I would never recommend a BC with so many negatives to a new diver. This has been engineered to attract those who see lots of drings and shiny bolts as something that is better than a simple harness. The function of it is limited and not adaptable to the same degree as a simple harness. The extra padding is totally unnecessary and only adds to the expense and complexity of it.

And at 439.00 without the wing they should be ashamed of themselves. I looked on one site and found the pure harness for 95.00 without a backplate. Reasonable but still friggin high.Now they also want 190 bucks for a ss plate on top of that! Insane.

The Atomics are great regs. But the average recreational diver could not tell the difference between them and a well tuned Sherwood Brut. Seriously.

And I agree with Baby Duck on the computer. That much money for a computer that does so little? I'm getting new comp in the near future. My Oceanic Veo that I've been using for 7 years and paid less than $350 for new, has finally decided to start dying on me. The back light no longer works, screen is kinda beat up, and the strap sucks. It also will no longer do what I need it to. But in seven years it saw hundreds of dives from the Caribbean to under the ice to decompression dives.

But it will not do trimix. And that is what I now need and want. So I'm glad I did not spend a thousand dollars on my first computer. I did not need to and could very easily have done so. An $800 one was pushed on my when I got my Veo but it does no more than the Veo so instead of replacing a 350 comp I'd be replacing an $800 one and be kinda pissed.

Not to be mean or even condescending, but you need to slow down. I know how tempting this stuff is. I spent 4 times what I planned on initially spending as a new diver on gear. Most of which I sold after a year or sits gathering dust on my rack waiting for a buyer. Take your time and really research your purchases. Please.

So many new divers get talked into gear they do not need, or worse, really cannot afford by the people who push the "this is your life support" bull crap. One company goes so far as to say they are the best. They are not. Not even close IMO. The most expensive maybe or damn near but certainly not the best.

The best is what will do what you need and want it to do and still leave you money to rent tanks and go diving on. That may be a $900.00 reg for the first and one second. But it may also be a $450.00 complete reg set that performs just as well or better and leaves you enough money for full weekend of diving and dinner out.

 

[scubadada]

These are the guidelines I teach for all my classes when it comes to gear. While your choices do meet some of them a number of things jump out at me as far as the choice of BC goes and I will note them in under each category.

1. Safe and Reliable - no brainer as any BC or BPW fits here
2. Comfortable and Well Fitting - Sure looks comfy, all that unnecessary padding that will add to the weight you'll need to carry and does it fit you or do you have to fit it?
3. Provide for adequate redundancy without being excessive. - serious over kill on d rings which are not adjustable on the shoulders. unnecessary sternum strap and quick releases
4. Configured for self sufficiency and self rescue - does not meet this if you'd need to cut yourself out of the harness
5. Simple and Streamlined - no, It is overly complicated with quick releases, too many d rings, webbing does not appear to allow for easy replacement, harness appears to be bolted to the plate rather than threaded through, adds unnecessary expense to repair or replacement
6. All accessories and valves easily reachable - N/A
7. Allows for Buddy Assist and Rescue - Again heavily padded straps could hinder rescue attempt where cutting the harness is required, Poorly placed d rings may also present difficulties when removing gear or allow for confusion as to what to unclip when trying to remove the harness.
8. Has a Low Drag Profile- Streamlined - N/A
9. Adaptable to the Divers Needs - BIG RED FLAG HERE! Shoulder d rings not adjustable, harness cannot be modified without significant effort or possibly compromising the integrity of it. D rings cannot be removed without cutting them off. Why are straps bolted to the plate? Appear to not be able to adjust their angle or position. As Baby Duck said these guys are clueless.
10. Adaptable to the Diver’s Objective - Again no if you need to modify the harness. It also does not appear easy to add a can light to the harness and have it easily detachable.
11. All Equipment Identifiable by Touch and Location - This is up to the diver
12. Standardized with Fellow Divers Yet Versatile to Meet the Needs of the User - Again no, it is not a standard hogarthian set up most common to divers using this type of BC.
13. Equipment Placement is balanced and Instinctive - not as easy to do since much is set and you must adapt to the BC. As opposed to setting it up perfectly for you from the beginning.
14. Any Changes have been made Gradually and with Careful Thought - little practical thought went into this design
15. Diver is open to Improvement to his/her Setup - while the diver may be he/she is limited by the basic design of the rig. This should not be the case
16. All Cylinders are Properly Labeled with the Gas Mixture, MOD, and the Diver’s Name - N/A

Why is the shop pushing you towards this? Simple, it is likely what they are making the greatest margin on. I would never recommend a BC with so many negatives to a new diver. This has been engineered to attract those who see lots of drings and shiny bolts as something that is better than a simple harness. The function of it is limited and not adaptable to the same degree as a simple harness. The extra padding is totally unnecessary and only adds to the expense and complexity of it.

And at 439.00 without the wing they should be ashamed of themselves. I looked on one site and found the pure harness for 95.00 without a backplate. Reasonable but still friggin high.Now they also want 190 bucks for a ss plate on top of that! Insane.

The Atomics are great regs. But the average recreational diver could not tell the difference between them and a well tuned Sherwood Brut. Seriously.

And I agree with Baby Duck on the computer. That much money for a computer that does so little? I'm getting new comp in the near future. My Oceanic Veo that I've been using for 7 years and paid less than $350 for new, has finally decided to start dying on me. The back light no longer works, screen is kinda beat up, and the strap sucks. It also will no longer do what I need it to. But in seven years it saw hundreds of dives from the Caribbean to under the ice to decompression dives.

But it will not do trimix. And that is what I now need and want. So I'm glad I did not spend a thousand dollars on my first computer. I did not need to and could very easily have done so. An $800 one was pushed on my when I got my Veo but it does no more than the Veo so instead of replacing a 350 comp I'd be replacing an $800 one and be kinda pissed.

Not to be mean or even condescending, but you need to slow down. I know how tempting this stuff is. I spent 4 times what I planned on initially spending as a new diver on gear. Most of which I sold after a year or sits gathering dust on my rack waiting for a buyer. Take your time and really research your purchases. Please.

So many new divers get talked into gear they do not need, or worse, really cannot afford by the people who push the "this is your life support" bull crap. One company goes so far as to say they are the best. They are not. Not even close IMO. The most expensive maybe or damn near but certainly not the best.

The best is what will do what you need and want it to do and still leave you money to rent tanks and go diving on. That may be a $900.00 reg for the first and one second. But it may also be a $450.00 complete reg set that performs just as well or better and leaves you enough money for full weekend of diving and dinner out.

Hi Jim,

Your sage advice is most appreciated. For transparency, you may want to declare your brand associations with your recommendations.

Good diving, Craig

 

[arthurmnev]

Thanks for the reply. You certainly took your time to get the information across. To levelset the conversation – I’ve been diving since ’98 as I’m getting older, my interests change and I’m taking this a lot more serious now than before. I would not call myself an expert by any stretch of imagination, but I have been in the water. At this juncture in my life, I’m looking for a good setup that will last for a while. I can spend a few dollars if that means an additional comfort and trouble free service.
To me the harness appeared to balance between the minimalist setup, ability to replace the wing and go for dual tank setup. I don’t see myself diving trimix any time soon. My preference is around warm water, I live in NJ, but, I’m not sure I’m actually going to dive here though who knows.
With that – a few comments; I’m not arguing for or against, but experience taught me to listen to people that have more of it. At this point I’m trying to understand the reasoning:
- Comfortable and Well Fitting - Sure looks comfy, all that unnecessary padding that will add to the weight you'll need to carry and does it fit you or do you have to fit it?

I’m not entirely sure “unnecessary” is the right word for this – comfort is a part of the process. Not being comfortable will affect the quality of time. Weight in this case is an issue, but everything has a price. I’m thinking 2 – 3 extra lbls is not that big of a deal.


- Provide for adequate redundancy without being excessive. - serious over kill on d rings which are not adjustable on the shoulders. unnecessary sternum strap and quick releases

Too many D rings does look a bit odd, compensation for non-adjustable rings does look a bit off—why not make them adjustable; not sure I get that.

- Configured for self sufficiency and self rescue - does not meet this if you'd need to cut yourself out of the harness

This might be a level of my education – why would I not take the harness off with clips? What would be the cases when I actually need to cut myself out? How is this setup different from a standard BCD?

- Simple and Streamlined - no, It is overly complicated with quick releases, too many d rings, webbing does not appear to allow for easy replacement, harness appears to be bolted to the plate rather than threaded through, adds unnecessary expense to repair or replacement

Not simple, or at least more complicated than standard webbing. Streamlining seems to be more or less on par with everything else out there…

- Allows for Buddy Assist and Rescue - Again heavily padded straps could hinder rescue attempt where cutting the harness is required, Poorly placed d rings may also present difficulties when removing gear or allow for confusion as to what to unclip when trying to remove the harness.

This is important, I’m not sure two front clips qualify as complicated, but I will submit to experience on this one.

- Adaptable to the Divers Needs - BIG RED FLAG HERE! Shoulder d rings not adjustable, harness cannot be modified without significant effort or possibly compromising the integrity of it. D rings cannot be removed without cutting them off. Why are straps bolted to the plate? Appear to not be able to adjust their angle or position. As Baby Duck said these guys are clueless.

If harness fits correctly from the get go, would I be correct to assume I would not need to adjust it much afterwards? Obviously there is wet / dry suit differences but beyond that … what else could change?


- Adaptable to the Diver’s Objective - Again no if you need to modify the harness. It also does not appear easy to add a can light to the harness and have it easily detachable.
This particular element was covered in another thread, highly subjective but obviously works for someone.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/bu...ht-systems/398767-scuba-pro-x-tek-form-2.html


- Standardized with Fellow Divers Yet Versatile to Meet the Needs of the User - Again no, it is not a standard hogarthian set up most common to divers using this type of BC.


I’m not sure what kind of setup would meet the criteria of hogarthain setup other than standard, minimalistic, long hose set. I suppose the “fellow” is a variable here.


- Equipment Placement is balanced and Instinctive - not as easy to do since much is set and you must adapt to the BC. As opposed to setting it up perfectly for you from the beginning.

If we are talking about comfort levels and padding – can you truly adopt minimalistic setup for comfort?


- Any Changes have been made Gradually and with Careful Thought - little practical thought went into this design

Design could use improvements, but I think the statement is highly subjective.

- Diver is open to Improvement to his/her Setup - while the diver may be he/she is limited by the basic design of the rig. This should not be the case
Agreed, but then again, some improvements would not be available without the basic elements of the design. I’m back to padding.

On the topic of the shop pushing me – they are pushing me not towards this specific setup but towards Scubapro. Yes, it is expensive, and yes the “S” tax is there. On the other hand, I hear plenty of people praising their service when something does happen. Paying extra 20% on top for a good warranty and service might be worth it – I’m not sure about this since I did not have to deal with them before.

I appreciate everyone that chimed in to my question; it takes time and effort to answer someone, especially when there is no reward other than personal satisfaction.
A thought on pricing – if someone pays 439 for this they deserve to pay that … 439 is MSRP and getting 20 – 40% knocked off is more than possible.

I do want to point out an observation of someone who is new to this board: I work in IT industry, I’ve been there for over 20 years. I have heard countless arguments and counter arguments for topics such as design, performance, minimalism and standards in Linux versus Windows and just like on this board I notice that in some cases personal belief (to a point of zealotry) comes through. I checked out Wayne shop as someone suggested and I will give him a call tomorrow and see what his opinion is (although I suspect I think I know what I will hear). Equally though, I suspect I know what I will hear from a Scubapro / Atomic dealer as well – this is a part of why I’m trying to make up my mind on this….

Once again; thanks to everyone who responded

 

[gsk3]

I'm happy to recommend other people than Wayne by PM if you want. And I'm happy to come dive with you and show you a rig without shiny things hanging off of every inch of it. I have no skin in this game, I'm just a diver.

Look, you're getting a lot of advice from a lot of different corners that this stuff is just neither well-designed nor streamlined. It looks like it was designed by a marketer, not a technical diver. For the same or less money, you can go with DSS, Halcyon, DiveRite...any one of which would serve you in much better stead.

 

[arthurmnev]

True, there are some elements of marketing there. The non-adjustable rings point to it loud and clear. I'll look closer to the other brands based on the advice from here (which is, after all, why I posted the question to begin with). My concern is safety, comfort and practicality. If I can combine the 3 and pay a bit more, I'm OK with it.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

For transparency sake I will say that I am a HOG/Edge dealer. I did not mention this in my post in order to allow the OP to do his own research. Having said that I also own DSS, Dive Rite, Oceanic, and Sherwood. I did have Scuba Pro and Aqualung gear but sold that when I decided to go with the current items I use as well as my own personal moral and ethical objections to some of their business practices. Which are well documented on this site.

To answer some of the OP points. You do not nbeed to adapt a one piece basic harness for comfort. It is one of the most comfortable and least restrictive setups there is under water.

Adjusting - wet suit, dry suit, changes in body composition. All come into play. I can set my basic harness to fit anyone from a 4'10" 95lb 13 yr old to a 6'2" 220 lb man in less than 10 minutes. No big deal for most but for someone who may want to hand their gear down to child or grandchild...

Quick clips can be problematic with heavy gloves or if you get tangled up in mono line. For some not a consideration but doing Jersey wrecks it's something to think about.

For some, the need to carry 2-3 extra lbs is a consideration if it affects trim and if it is not necessary by choosing another option why do it.

439.00 is the price I saw and if they are going by SP policies there is no way you will get 20-40% off. Maybe 5%. Scuba Pro has minimum selling price guidelines that dealers may not deviate from without risking losing their dealership. Aqualung is the same way. Other mfg's that I choose to deal with do not have such restrictions. there is a minimum that can be advertised but the final price is between the dealer and customer.

As for warranty read the fine print. Some decide to change things out of the blue with no warning to their end users. I deal with mfg's who put the diver first. Then the shop.

 

[SeaCobra]

One of the things missing here (and perhaps I just missed it) is what are the diver's needs? There is no way to evaluate the intended purchase or make suggestions without knowing that.

ScubaPro and Atomic make phenomenal regs and other equipment. I have owned both for a lot of years and I feel their longevity, quality and ease of service were well worth the extra investment.

I concur with the suggestion to talk to Wayne and get with someone in person to help you out. He may be a bit weary today after a long trade show weekend, but he will always have time and a smile for you.

 

[Ozwald]

The harness is over engineered and complex. A better choice is a simple one piece with a stainless steel plate. Will also likely save you a few hundred bucks. You can get regs much cheaper and will perform as well or better. The computer is IMO overkill for a new diver. Even with the air integration you should have a simple spg on a hose as back up for when, not if, the battery in the transmitter dies. If you are going for a simple streamlined travel set up to also use for local diving, the items you are considering are taking you in the wrong direction.

As far as a pony why would you want to go to the expense of another transmitter (failure point) over a small spg to go on the pony reg? I think you need to talk to some actual divers in your area and get away from the shop that is advising you for a while. A pony or stage is something you want to be as simple and reliable as possible. It is also likely to get knocked around a bit on boats and that transmitter is like a magnet for taking a hit. And what if you would need to hand it off? The diver taking it would not be able to monitor the remaining air if the display is on your arm.

Before buying anything else go to a shop that caters to wreck divers and that sells other brands. Talk to some actual northeast divers, try out a basic bpw, don't pay attention to magazine or mfg reviews of gear, ask questions here, and really loom at what you are getting for your money.

And btw, it is not life support. The life support is between your ears. The stuff is just a tool. And high cost does not equate to the best tool for the job. Sometimes that is all it is - high cost and paying for a name.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalks

I disagree with the the BC being over engineered and complex. It's not. I have one as well as a Halcyon rig and love both of them. The SP works better "for me" when in a drysuit with doubles.

As far as the regs we are referring to being "cheaper and better" I also disagree. I had a set of the regs in question and sold them a month later because they didn't perform anywhere close to my SP MK25 or my Apeks Tek3's.

And this thing about our equipment not being life support. I to disagree with those that think this way. If it were merely a tool you could do without that particular tool and possibly get the same result, much like any other tool. Our equipment plays a huge role in keeping us alive along with our common sense and training. I would equate all of these to life support.

I'm not trying to start a war here but we all have opinions and these are only mine.

 

[VooDooGasMan]

I am here to start a WAR (debate), Scuba Pro has there gear for the whole world not just america.

No Doubt that a 2" webbing Back plate (al,ss, or plastic) wing is the most versatile.

BP/W is great for drysuit as no extra flotation(needed weight to get below the surface)


Dumpster Diver Bought a SP Classic and set his doubles up with it as I have on mine it has a 56# lift.

My early 70's SP was a plate molded with a wing. Bruce Higgins who built an underwater park in Edmonds Washington used that same Bc and I believe he put even Tripples on it while working on his REEF.

To say SP is Clueless is ludicrous (yes a rhyme)

I see SP BC's and Reg's and suits all the time in the last four decades. Even on you tube it is very much the gear I see.

I dive Diverite and it is very good gear.

I dive SP regs cause they last a very long time without a single service.

AS for all the other dive gear that is out there I think is good also if taken care of.

 

[DevonDiver]

-1 for the ScubaPro harness and wing. It's over-convoluted and designed to appeal to novice divers preconceptions, rather than actual users needs.

There's many better, and cheaper, alternatives on the market. Go simple and cheap - upgrade if you need to. BP&W are meant to be modular - thus easy, economical and straight-forward to upgrade to your personal preferences. Opting for an expensive, non-customizable rig defies all logic.