Gear or training? what makes the diver?

[They call me Tater]

GJim you got me again!! (once the ice melts I will be outside and not on the web)

So everyone agrees experience is very important but what about a twist to define what 'experience' means?
If you are safe, cautious, don't push air, dive with good buddies and have 1000 uneventful and safe dives do you learn more than someone who dives with all kinds of students, dives Coz and Quarries, maybe some Ice and tech dives but only has 300 dives?

That is not meant to be specific but I frequently see experience listed as critical (especially by those with experience) yet I don't see a lot about what that means. Experience saving lives? Pushing boundaries, Doing CPR, or diving completely trauma free and without stress. Just a question I have wondered on other topics. Sometime I think maturity and or attitude vs experience is underrated and while they may go together they may not. Hope it adds to but does not derail the OP.

 

[maniago]

three on the tree (or you aren't Driving It Right)

My first truck. Which I still have. Got rid of that I'm stupid tho. T-5=much better.

 

[Bob DBF]

...and "experience" don't make you a better diver.

Which would mean that you would not get better than your first dive, no matter how many dives you make.

Comfort in the water and practice does.

Practice is experience. Although experience may not make you comfortable in the water, I've seen a lot kids who were not enthusiastic about learning to swim become quite comfortable in the water over time from experience.

Some people wont be comfortable regardless of how much "experience" they get and that is a serious issue as they think theire hot **** with their 300 dives, but when an issue arise they freak out.

They may well be comfortable, having no idea of the situation in which they are actually involved. A false sense of security is not a good thing underwater.

When I finally got around to certifying in '80, there were two students in the class that were not comfortable in the water. The instructor refused to certify them and invited them to return for the next class and work with them until they were ready.
I understand that dosen't happen much now.



Bob

 

[Goodtime Adventures]

To quote one of my favourite instructors..... you can have 'all the gear, but no idea'. Just because a diver has a fantastic array of equipment does not make them a fantastic diver. Its just means they've done well professionally and have more disposable income to buy higher range kit/gadgets (totally not jealous, honest )

However (to echo a few others thoughts above), well trained divers with a range of experience are likely to a) be better at selecting the gear that's right for them, and b) be more familiar with it and and therefore more comfortable using it. Its the equipment choices themselves, and suitability of them to the individual divers needs, that are ultimately the important factor, not how much it costs or how much of it you have.

I do agree with past posts however, in that experienced divers are likely to be able to dive more easily in a range of different gear set ups than a less experienced diver, and still be relatively comfortable. There is no substitute for your own preferred configuration though, regardless of training or experience.

 

[TMHeimer]

Comfort in the water is THE most important by far. Ive seen divers with hundreds of dives and all the fanciest flashy gear make complete fools of themselves in several different ways, including bolting to the surface...
Gear and "experience" don't make you a better diver. Comfort in the water and practice does. Some people wont be comfortable regardless of how much "experience" they get and that is a serious issue as they think theire hot **** with their 300 dives, but when an issue arise they freak out.

Yes, theres wrong gear choices for certain dives, but that tend to be a result of lack of ability to make an informed choice.
One example of such is the asshats who decided to dive to 60 meters on single al80s without even knowing their gas consumption and then trying to tell the two guides who are not only instructors but also tech divers how its a perfectly sound thing to do when you hold an AOW cert. Yes, they had the wrong gear - because they had no clue what they where doing...

Unfortunately, I agree. You would think that with hundreds of dives all divers would be very efficient--hey, it's really not rocket science. I have heard of such people--even pros-- who suck. Have to say though I haven't met any that I can recall. If someone has hundreds of dives or is say, a DM, I have found that they are in fact very good divers. Maybe I've just been lucky.

 

[BRT]

So.. you appear to have driven a lot of different vehicles. Which configuration was right? Which vehicle was the optimal one that made you stop and say, "no other" for the rest of your life? I don't know about the US but where I live right hand drive vehicles from Japan are quite popular. My buddy owns an old Range Rover (rudimentary to say the least) I own a mini van (auto on the tree, indicator in the dash) and a sedan (auto on the floor, indicator at my right hip). I used to get out of one of those vehicles and drive a 3 ton split axle truck - how do I, and many others, do it? we should be crashing left right and center.

If you are suggesting an inflator is going to stump someone I will say that person is generally just stumpable. There are three things that really don't change about them (except for the elevator thing). An OPV that you can usually dump from, a shoulder pull you can sometimes dump from, a mouthpiece you can dump from. That other button adds air. With that in mind you should be able to don almost any BCD on the market and orient yourself. After that, if you can't dive it you have a basic knowledge problem, not an equipment specific one.

I just don't buy this small detail stumping people argument, other than during initial training when everything is task loading. Someone who claims to have a lot of dives, yet is afraid of variation, troubles me. It seems they have become completely dependent on the gear and not the thinking.

---------- Post added March 22nd, 2014 at 06:24 PM ----------



Absolutely.

All of the automatics you mention have more in common than differences in the controls. You move the lever, a pull up knob, or a push down button and move the lever 1 click togo back or 3 clicks to go ahead. Likely the 3 ton truck still starts as did my old falcon 3 on the tree by pushing the clutch and turning the key. The turn signal signal switch, the brake pedal, the clutch position and lots of other items are in common between the 65 Falcon and the 3 ton truck. The Road Ranger trans might make it so the average car driver didn't pull smoothly away and go right through the gears! I've never looked inside a right hand drive vehicle but some right hand drive Subarus were imported for mail delivery so I assume the brake and gas are still on the left and right respectively as they are even on most farm tractors. Driving on the left side of the road would scare me. I don't know if I would react correctly when something went wrong. The difference is whether we get the problem solved in an emergency, under pressure, when the equipment is non-standard. And I don't mean non standard like the difference between a back inflate vs a jacket BCD. Or the difference between a Ford and a Subaru. I'm talking about basic control differences like expecting a kid to dial a rotary phone in an emergency if they have never seen one before. More than likely they would push the numbers.

I agree with what you said about the inflator and dumps. It's the elevator thing that I might not get under pressure. Kind of like I wouldn't care if a tank turned on with the valve handle on the left or right or top, but it might take me awhile if it didn't follow the basic "righty tighty, lefty loosy" rule.

 

[TSandM]

A diver with a lot of experience and extremely solid skills can dive pretty well in a wide variety of gear, modulo the fact that you can't fight physics, and a rig that is badly unbalanced is going to make anybody look worse.

However, a diver with shaky, beginning skills will be significantly hampered by poorly fitting, poorly designed, or poorly functioning equipment, and can often be helped by simplifying and balancing his gear.

 

[DaleC]

And yet these equipment discussions often devolve into almost semantic debates about the minutia of configuration; whether a spg should be on the left hip or chest, whether one should add a sixth D ring or wear a pony on the right or left side. Even I get into it sometimes and most of the time it is just about taking something we like and transcribing it into greater relevance by suggesting it is necessary rather than personal preference.

Another wrinkle in the discussion is the fact that many divers go too far, too fast. I began swimming and became proficient, then skin diving (snorkeling) and became proficient. When I began diving I spent a lot of time at the basic level (still do) developing proficiency. At each stage, if I felt uncomfortable, I could default to the previous levels skill set as a remedy. If one is a poor swimmer with no skin diving experience but takes OW and AOW courses and finds themselves 100' down and uncomfortable, the only default they have is to become completely gear dependent, and thus, gear conscious.

 

[NAM001]

- Post added March 23rd, 2014 at 01:21 AM ----------

I agree gear does not make a better diver, it can make a diver better though. Ones skills and experience makes the diver. the gear is just what facilitates the process. some gear just lets you do more than others.

I don't see much people arguing that gear would make a better diver... however a good diver would choose gear that best suits their needs and allow them to dive within their acceptable levels of risk

 

[Nasser]

Experience.



Bob


-----------------------------------
“One thing is for sure you can't lie about your skills when you get in the water. The water tells everything!!! “ Mayor

I honestly feel I'm a better diver now. I learned to respect the ocean the hard way. One swallow at a time. Mark Derail

+1

Experience and all that it entails. Experience in education, experience in the water with lots of dives in different environments with different divers. Experience with different equipment and finding what works best for you.