How different are tec courses agency to agency

[eelnoraa]

I take it you are serious. So here is an list of issues I see being a Rec level diver only
- no one seems to be in trim
- no one seems to be able to stay neutral without some kicking
- the finning technique is also lacking, see how they turn around, also with a lot of hand movement, bicyle kicking
- I don't see a team here.
- a guy switching gas at 3:13, but without a confirmation procedure
- what's up with all the dangling hoses and equipments.
- there is at least one guy breathing from his necklace, what's up with that
- on ascent, divers are all over the places, not on same depth,
- bag shoot is such a mess.

I am assuming AN/DP class has some deco there, maybe similar to GUE Rec3?? So I wonder why they are even allow to enter such a class.

 

[KevinNM]

Not a tech diver, but the obvious flaws are overwhelming. There is literally one guy in the entire video who seems to have trim and buoyancy under control. At least half the divers are vertical and flutter kicking to hold themselves off the bottom or the wreck. I stopped at that point. The thing that is amazing is that this isn't a competitor or the scuba police collecting evidence on how utterly incompetent they are, this is a promotional video put out by the company.

Though I have to admit I've have seen this kind of stuff before, from small tactical training companies that appear to have learned everything they know from comic books and action moves. Except they are doing it with real guns and real ammo, and people are apparently paying them to learn how to do utterly unsafe and totally pointless things.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

They look kinda wacky and spastic to me, but I was wondering what the tech divers say. The stage bottles seem to be clipped off weird, the guy taking the video seems to be upset a lot, the wreck is ugly and devoid of fish. I see two divers at the end kicking pretty hard on ascent, I thought they were kinda close when shooting bags, but I have never taken a tech class.. How deep is that wreck?

 

[Patoux01]

But, what you have showed, in the video and the sequenced still photos, is really not indicative of other agencies either, is it? If you have no dog in the fight, why use isolated examples of particularly crappy diving to illustrate how 'different' GUE is?

I can't imagine that any competent TDI instructor would look at the first example, the video of a Frog Dive course, and not cringe. There are so many things wrong with what the viewer sees that it is hard to watch. In fairness to Frog Dive, the videography is poor, and why the videographer felt the need to try and communicate by shouting into his regulator is not entirely clear.

It is also absurd to label the second example as 'PADI SM + advanced nitrox at it's best'. It isn't, in fact it isn't even close. These are isolated examples of bad form. Of course, the common denominator is that both involve Sydney dive operators. I wonder, should the more reasonable conclusion be that Sydney dive operators are generally crappy? Should that general assessment also be applied to the one facility in the Sydney area (Dive Center Bondi) with the one instructor who can teach tech, even though we have no video of a course taught by that center? I personally don't think either conclusion is reasonable, but I do wonder why you selected two examples from the same locale (Sydney).

If your point is that the number of GUE instructors is quite limited, compared to virtually any other agency, that is a plausible statement. If you want to suggest that, as a result, the consistency of GUE training across multiple instructors is likely to be greater, I would not disagree. I think it would be equally reasonable to say that another difference between agencies is that it may be harder to find a GUE course near where a diver may actually live, or available at a time that a diver may actually wish to pursue it.

I am confident, based on all that I read from people whose opinions I respect, that GUE training is generally very good. I am also confident that it is inane to attempt to bolster the quality of GUE training by showing examples of crappy diving ostensibly representative of other agencies. Notwithstanding your claim that you are, of course, 'NOT saying that those agencies teach ****. ' you are instead implying it by your selection of examples, and your labeling of the examples.

Okay, let me set this straight. Reason I posted this, is simply because you CANNOT find this happening at GUE (or probably UTD, maybe IANTD for that matter), while, obvioulsy, it has happened with both TDI (frog dive) and PADI (Abyss).

Then, one may wonder why I'd post about Sydney diving right, well if you look slightly to the left of this post, the reason might be visible: that's where I live, and I've gone through most centres here (Bondi being my regular shop, unfortunately I haven't had the chance do dive with Liam Allen), because I was looking for ANDP. I found no suitable instructor (only 3 that I'd trust, all wanting you to be in BM).

Then, there's the fact that there's less than 15 (I think?) T2 instructors, which means it is fairly easy to know who is who and keep the standards up.

Finally, when I say there's very good instructors at TDI/PADI, I mean it (Steve Martin, Santiago Pintado, that kind of people)

Hope that gets the point across...

---------- Post added March 1st, 2015 at 08:18 PM ----------

On a sidenote, do people believe it's ones duty to report such blatent disregard to standards? (could be worth another thread though, if not existing already)

 

[Omisson]

Do you really want to go that game?

Here you go, it names the shop and agency.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqrwGG7EHpA
Padi SM + advanced nitrox at it's best here

However, I am NOT saying that those agencies teach ****. They don't, there's very good instructors there as well. However, if you find an instructor at GUE that runs courses like shown previously, well, I honestly want to know who it is.

Again, I'm not in a combat for or against any agency, but saying that "GUE is no different" is being blind (to not get insulting). There's no crossover to GUE, instructorship doesn't last a lifetime, ... it's just not the same thing.

The difference- standard deviance over a large versus small range.

If you have 20 instructors world wide, controlling content on each one's teaching is infinitely easier- the bell curve flattens out more and finding the statistically probable "bad apple" is harder because there are so few to begin with. So finding 2 bad instructors in 20 (10%) is difficult at best because even finding the 20 is difficult. But statistics tell us they must exist - even if relatively- because perfection is impossible.

But, If you have 20,000 instructors world wide finding bad ones becomes far easier- larger over-all pool ergo larger pool of extremes on the bell curve (both good and bad btw). Now you are looking at 2000 bad ones (same 10%)- much easier to find and identify and much more of a range of "bad" possible.

 

[kensuf]

I don't have any tech training. Can someone tell me some of the things in that video which were so objectionable? I would like to use this opportunity to learn- seriously.

I only watched the first four minutes, but this is what I saw..

1. Poor technique #1 - Trim -- feet down = bad. (a) You're going to stir up any silt and sediment below you, and (b) you're working harder in any sort of current by having a larger surface area.

2. Poor technique #2 - Fin Kicks -- flutter kick = bad. The flutter kick stirs up silt/sediment below you. Frog kicks are better. Anyone engaged in technical diving should be able to do a frog kick, helicopter turn, back down (reverse kick), and stay stationary/hovering.

3. Improper gear #1 -- steel decompression bottles and doubles. In the open ocean you want to strive to have as close to a "balanced rig" as possible. A balanced rig means you should be able to swim it up to the surface in the event of a buoyancy failure. Steel 95's used as deco bottles have no place in ocean diving, or at least not in any sort of class situation. An aluminum 40 should provide enough deco gas for up to 30 minutes of O2 (~60 minutes of non-O2) for even the worst SAC rates, and are pretty light. Double 95's probably have a place, just make sure to use backup lift (either two wings or a drysuit), but I would probably prefer double 85's or double aluminum 80s.

4. Improper gear #2, split fins. Do those work in a high current? Really?

5. Poor communication / teamwork.

As I said, I stopped watching at 3 minutes and 54 seconds, so there might have been mroe that I missed.

As for the photos of the sidemount class, poor trim is #1. You should never have your feet down (see first item of my video critique). And I hate tank boots on steel tanks. But at least in one of the photos a guy was smart enough to thumb the dive from the dock.

 

[eelnoraa]

The difference- standard deviance over a large versus small range.

If you have 20 instructors world wide, controlling content on each one's teaching is infinitely easier- the bell curve flattens out more and finding the statistically probable "bad apple" is harder because there are so few to begin with. So finding 2 bad instructors in 20 (10%) is difficult at best because even finding the 20 is difficult. But statistics tell us they must exist - even if relatively- because perfection is impossible.

But, If you have 20,000 instructors world wide finding bad ones becomes far easier- larger over-all pool ergo larger pool of extremes on the bell curve (both good and bad btw). Now you are looking at 2000 bad ones (same 10%)- much easier to find and identify and much more of a range of "bad" possible.

In term of statistic, there are two indicators that define what good quality is: 1)The average quality. 2)The variation from the average. This should be independent of sample size. I am sure both PADI and GUE can have same quality instructors, do you truely believe they have the same average and variation?

 

[Redshift]

As for the photos of the sidemount class, poor trim is #1. You should never have your feet down (see first item of my video critique). And I hate tank boots on steel tanks. But at least in one of the photos a guy was smart enough to thumb the dive from the dock.

That's not having feet down, that's standing vertically on the bottom while sending the SMB!!

 

[boulderjohn]

We had to calculate team gas in tdi advanced wreck. Ive been in the padi tec world, none of the course material had us calculate team gas planning to the detail that the tdi advanced wreck material does. Same instructor, different agency certs, he did cover more comprehensive gas planning in the padi tec courses than the padi material provided.

I am a TDI instructor, and I am currently examining the PADI materials while contemplating crossing over. Both teach team gas management. The PADI materials definitely teach it, including calculating turn pressures for teams with different sized tanks. There is actually a pretty fair amount of time spent on it.

All agencies I know teach you to be self reliant, and all agencies I know teach you to work in teams. The PADI materials I just read talk about the fact that you should be able to solve any problem without assistance, but that assistance should be there and be available to you if you do end up needing it.

 

[kensuf]

You're right. I missed it in the first two photos because the fins were cropped off.

<Picard face palm>