How serious a screw-up was this?

[Tortuga68]

You are free to disregard what people who actually deal with liability in the dive industry are telling you about how it works

There seem to be dive professionals in the thread taking both sides of the argument

by all means go to your nearest PADI shop and ask to peruse the back issues of the PADI publication "Undersea Journal." You will find a section in there about liability and risk management in nearly every issue for the last few years. It is filled with example cases taken from their files and includes plenty of information on the results of these cases

Thanks, I will do that

 

[tomfcrist]

Sorry, I didn't realise you were the only one allowed to ask for further details on the OP

I never said you couldnt. Why would I? OBTW the OP just told you that the DM had Plainly stated that the gear would be ready to dive. Still think he has no liability?

Correct or not, I still haven't seen any evidence to support your contention about the potential liability of DMs in these circumstances - just a lot of opinion (both for and against). So you'll have to forgive me if I don't change my mind just because you say I should, even though you are an instructor and claim to have done more boat dives than me

Has nothing to do with the amount of boat dives, more about the variety of different boats and the inconsistancy of thier waivers. Not to mention the fact that you dont understand what liability really is, which contributes to your ignorance.

On the topic of my alleged 'complacency' I think you're confusing my opinion on responsibility with my personal attitude towards dive safety, both for myself and for the divers that are under my care when I'm working as a DMiT or guide (no, I don't 'set their gear up' for them, but I do try & check that they have their air, masks & fins on before they splash)

I dont set up peoples gear either. But if i did the freaking air would be on.

FYI this approach to argument is known as ad hominem tu quoque FYI, not to be confused with ad hominem abusive or ad hominem circumstantial

You can look them up in the link I provided to you earlier

Really, it took you 20min to decide to get back on wiki to find some obscure latin phrases to throw at me. Here is some plain english that i dont think you need to look up: You are wrong! Educate Yourself!

I really hope you make a great DM. Stay in China though, maybe they are more forgiving of negligence.

 

[shake-and-bake]

Footnote: This happened in Belize, and involved a business that, to my knowledge, has nothing to do with the U.S. If there had been an injury or death, the diver (or his heirs) most likely would have had to file a lawsuit in Belize, which would be governed by the law of Belize. I have no idea how Belizian law would handle this sort of claim.

 

[tomfcrist]

Footnote noted

 

[Brendon]

Shake and Bake, I keep going back and forth with this... Given what Blanks you filled in since the OP I believe the DM made a mistake, maybe... One thing I would really like to know is: Was everybody elses air off as well prior to the dive? Just answer for yourself unless you have a definite answer for the others. Did you have to turn your air on? Im trying to determine if you havent noticed, whether he just missed one or did not turn any of them on. I will explain after you answer why I asked this question.

 

[shake-and-bake]

Prior to this incident, I had been diving three dives a day for four days. In every instance, my air was turned on by the DM (I was the only diver on the boat). I made sure it was on before I went over the side. On day five, there were three of us. First dive, air on, nobody had a problem. Second dive, air on for two, off for one. That was my last dive of the trip.

 

[Brendon]

Well then given what you have stated it would be hard to believe anything other then the DM made a mistake. A victim less crime as no one was injured. Personally I this point I believe the DM had set himself up for failure by taking on more duty then normal in this scenario. If it was clear that it was his practice and it seems to be, the DM in this case always being the one setting up gear and turning the air on or not as he did. Then a diver may find themself thinking that the "DM already took care of it, I don't need to." In this case he didn't, though at this point expected to do so. Which to some extent relieved the diver of the responsibility to do so himself. In a normal situation it would be hard for me to believe the DM to be absolutely responsible for ensuring everyones air is on. However in this case, he designed and created the problem itself. How could he not then be solely responsible for the injury if one had taken place? I will not throw stones as I have made many mistakes. I have however learned from this thread much. Don't setup an expectation unless you are prepared to be responsible for upholding that expectation.

 

[Brendon]

By the way in all my years of diving military, commerical (they tried), recreational, no one has ever setup my gear besides myself. My train of thought is dont touch my stuff or touch me when im getting on the boat unless you want an ear full. I am, I train myself and others to be as independent as possible from day one. If you are a wet nurse you will always be expected to be a wet nurse. That is not part of my "Duty" not now, not ever.

 

[shake-and-bake]

Sounds like a wise practice. As I mentioned at the outset, this was my first experience at boat diving so I had no idea how typical this operator's practices are. I have certainly learned a lot from this thread that will serve me well in the future, and I thank those who have participated.

I should perhaps mention as well that this incident aside, my experience with the operator was fantastic. Having the undivided attention of the DM (he is also an instructor) for 12 dives was huge. He knew my level of (in)experience and went out of his way to observe how I was diving, and between dives he would give me advice and tips on how to improve my technique and reduce my air intake. Everything he taught me improved my next diver, and I came home feeling like I was a 10 times better and more confident diver than when I left. I would use them again anytime.

 

[String]

I didnt say he was a nanny. Are you implying that a DM has no professional obligation to the divers on his boat? If so, why is he required to carry insurance?

Because like any diver he might get sued. Just like ANY dive buddy might be. Its why insurance policies cover liability even for non "professionals". His professional role involves providing a brief and logistic support. The DM doesn't even have to dive. He also assists instructors with non-certified divers so needs liability there.

What Divemaster do you know that lets someone splash without a mask on?

And what if the DM is already in the water with another pair of divers? Or tying the boat off? Or briefing another pair away from the swim deck. A DM isn't there to catch the terminally stupid. If you're dull enough to jump in without a mask (i) its your fault and (ii) its not exactly life threatening. Learn from that mistake or give up diving.

Not ensuring the divers air is on is about as negligent as letting a diver jump in with a reg in his mouth that isnt attached to his tank....Have you ever heard of the term Global awareness?

Not the case at all. If you're dealing with an unqualified student who is RELYING on you for safety as they aren't trained to know better then yes. But you're dealing with certified divers all of which have been trained, signed forms and have qualifications stating (i) they're not that incompetent and (ii) if they are its their own fault.

Nowhere in ANY of the instructor manuals, roles or other materials does it state "A divemaster is a nanny to look after divers who although claim to be qualified dont meet the definition". A DM is primarily logistics when dealing with certified divers. He's not qualified nor should be be a babysitter for divers that allegedly dont need it.

So in your opinion, if someone else sets your gear up for you, that excuses you from needing to check it yourself, despite the fact that's what you were trained to do and you just signed a waiver saying you would do. Got it

Its like "Heres some nitrox, the guy at the shop blended it, theres no need to analyse it. Just go dive". Thats no different to letting someone built the gear for you, dress you and just rolling in without checking.

Why are people always so keen to pass blame onto someone else even when its their own idiotic mistake. Everyone makes mistakes - however the good people admit to them and learn from them instead of looking to blame someone else for it.