I wanna do it all

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Every GUE based diver I have ever dived with has had great skills. The little contact I have had with Jarrod and what I have heard from others makes me believe he is not only an outstanding diver, he is more importantly a man of great integrity who is trying to create outstanding divers. There is, however, a trap in thinking to which it can be easy to fall prey when comparing agencies. To show what I mean, I would like to create a hypothetical example that takes things to a bit of an absurd extreme.

Let's say that I create a cave diving training agency called the WFD--World's Finest Divers. I make the name of the organization the mission statement. You cannot begin cave training with WFD until you have logged 1,000 dives and completed Advanced Trimix training. There are 5 certification levels leading to the Cave Diver certification with my agency. The training requirements for each level include a list of skills too numerous to mention here, including skills 99% of the world's cave divers have never seen performed and many would argue are completely unnecessary. Each level includes a minimum of 50 training dives, and once each level is reached, 100 experience dives at that level are required before you can begin training at the next level. One of the training requirements is to lay a total of at least 1,000 feet of new line. Students would have to compete in at least one triathlon during training.

This would, no doubt, be a very expensive program, especially since my instructors would have to be well paid. Only very wealthy people with a lot of time on heir hands and great physical conditioning would even consider enrolling, but I could possibly get some such students.

When I get my first graduates, I would have complete justification in saying that the people graduating from my cave course are superior divers to the people graduating from all other cave diving courses, including GUE. By extension, that would mean that the skills of divers in all other agencies, including GUE, would be inferior to the skills of my graduates.

Does that mean that I have the best agency? Does that mean that my agency is superior to all others? Would that make all other agencies, including GUE, inferior agencies? Would I be able to sneer at those other agencies because their standards are no match for mine? I think it rather shows that I have created an agency that fits the needs of a very select clientele.

To show a contrasting point of view, take a look at the link I gave to the Extreme Exposure Diver Education page, which I think shows an outstanding educational program, one with which I would be proud to be associated. Notice that a beginning diver has several choices, including two price levels of PADI courses and the GUE program, which is more expensive. The implication is that the shop management thinks that different programs can provide a solid level of learning to different students with different personal goals in mind. I cannot believe a man with Jarrod's integrity would sell customers a program he did not think would be suitable to their needs. The page shows a wide range or programs, giving potential customers a good selection from which to choose the kind of training they wish to pursue. Each of those programs is better than the others in terms of meeting the needs of a specific student. A program that is better for one student would not be better for another.
 
I wont presume to know what Jarrod thinks.

But the topic at hand is the best agency. Students that come out of GUE classes (esp the upper level ones) are CONSISTENTLY squared away.

Other agencies are not as consistent in their output. They aren't consistent in what they teach or how they teach it. With a GUE class, its real easy to figure out what's going to happen in class, and what happens is fairly universal from instructor to instructor. Not the case with most other agencies.

The real thing that brought me into this was when OP stated that he wanted to do deep, long cave dives. That's fairly niche, and there aren't a whole lot of divers doing that. Its a small group. A lot of them are concentrated in GUE.
 
But the topic at hand is the best agency. Students that come out of GUE classes (esp the upper level ones) are CONSISTENTLY squared away.

My communications skills have apparently pretty much disintegrated in my old age.
 
I wont presume to know what Jarrod thinks.

But the topic at hand is the best agency. Students that come out of GUE classes (esp the upper level ones) are CONSISTENTLY squared away.

Other agencies are not as consistent in their output. They aren't consistent in what they teach or how they teach it. With a GUE class, its real easy to figure out what's going to happen in class, and what happens is fairly universal from instructor to instructor. Not the case with most other agencies.

The real thing that brought me into this was when OP stated that he wanted to do deep, long cave dives. That's fairly niche, and there aren't a whole lot of divers doing that. Its a small group. A lot of them are concentrated in GUE.

Here's the first major set (of many) logical fallacies in the kind of bravado you are substituting for empirical reasoning:

"Other agencies are not as consistent in their output"

It's not an Agency that teaches a course. It's an instructor. So there I'll agree - instructors from other agencies are not as consistent as GUE.

Why?

Now - I suppose you'll posit therefore the quality of the instructor at GUE must be better.... Not necessarily so -but a reasonable posit. Smaller is usually better for control purposes... and on that front- as a dive training agency GUE is minuscule so maybe.

Of course we can also debate the ability of an Agency to properly police it's instructors- but as a baseline - it's far easier for GUE with a handful of instructors to monitor them for quality assurance then it is for PADI or TDI with 1000 and 100 fold the number of instructors respectively to be so hands on...

So again- yes it's better there at GUE...For the smaller number of instructors teaching to keep the Q&A managed.

It is also much more difficult for an organization that has been around 50+ years to keep up on the instructors over long lengths of time- say the instructor certified in 1974 as opposed to an organization that is barely 15 years old and therefore the oldest in-agency instructor dates to 1998 or so.

Again -over time-SOME instructors do get sloppy, fatigued, become uncaring... But not always- take a Wyatt- instructor since 1974- still a stickler for details, still a great instructor- and yet 40 years of instructing haven't dimmed his skills. Hopefully that won't be the case with GUE instructors- but we won't know that for another 25 or so years....

At the end of the day it seems GUE has its roots in the dive education of the IANTD, NACD, and NSSCDS- where it's founder was trained, certified, and became an instructor. So I guess SOMEONE at those agencies were pretty damn good to have turned him out as a student and instructor... Cause I don't think he went through a GUE course when he was learning the ropes.....
 
When the time comes, please be sure to ask your instructor where to put your can light and how to route it.......because that is a really, really bad place for it.

I normally dive backmounted doubles, so it won't be going there regardless. That was my first dive trying out sidemount (my first dive in a drysuit too) and the picture was taken near the end of it when I went into the ballroom and swam around. I don't even have a sidemount harness yet, so the light was put on there and routed with a quickness to test out the function of said light.

That said... for some reason I found using a dry suit to be MUCH easier than diving wet. Required no weight to stay neutral with full PST LP80's and I think I only ended up hanging vertically once or twice the whole afternoon. Figured that wasn't so bad for a dive where the only thing on me I had previous experience with was my mask.
 
Here's the first major set (of many) logical fallacies in the kind of bravado you are substituting for empirical reasoning:

"Other agencies are not as consistent in their output"

It's not an Agency that teaches a course. It's an instructor. So there I'll agree - instructors from other agencies are not as consistent as GUE.

Why?

Now - I suppose you'll posit therefore the quality of the instructor at GUE must be better.... Not necessarily so -but a reasonable posit. Smaller is usually better for control purposes... and on that front- as a dive training agency GUE is minuscule so maybe.

Of course we can also debate the ability of an Agency to properly police it's instructors- but as a baseline - it's far easier for GUE with a handful of instructors to monitor them for quality assurance then it is for PADI or TDI with 1000 and 100 fold the number of instructors respectively to be so hands on...

So again- yes it's better there at GUE...For the smaller number of instructors teaching to keep the Q&A managed.

It is also much more difficult for an organization that has been around 50+ years to keep up on the instructors over long lengths of time- say the instructor certified in 1974 as opposed to an organization that is barely 15 years old and therefore the oldest in-agency instructor dates to 1998 or so.

Again -over time-SOME instructors do get sloppy, fatigued, become uncaring... But not always- take a Wyatt- instructor since 1974- still a stickler for details, still a great instructor- and yet 40 years of instructing haven't dimmed his skills. Hopefully that won't be the case with GUE instructors- but we won't know that for another 25 or so years....

At the end of the day it seems GUE has its roots in the dive education of the IANTD, NACD, and NSSCDS- where it's founder was trained, certified, and became an instructor. So I guess SOMEONE at those agencies were pretty damn good to have turned him out as a student and instructor... Cause I don't think he went through a GUE course when he was learning the ropes.....

You're sounding brand new right now. Maybe you're not up on all the history...

In any case, I think I identified the big divide. With GUE, you ARE getting training from the agency. There one way to do things thats taught from all the different instructors. Lights go here, regs go here, donate like this, communicate like that, mark lines like this, switch stages like that. Diver A who was trained by an NSS instructor might do it totally different than diver B who was trained by a different NSS instructor. Tough to have much cohesiveness with a training method like that.

GUE also reevaluates ALL its instructors annually (might be every two years). That's how you keep the quality up. You clearly admit that other agencies have "sloppy, fatigued, uncaring" instructors. I challenge you to find one of those in GUE. I'll save you the effort - there aren't any. And you're going to ague that the agency that can't maintain its instructor corps, doesn't have a consistent message, and doesn't reliably produce solid students is the 'better' choice. Wut?

Now, tell me about Jimmy Wyatt's experience in doing deep long cave dives, and tell me why I should go to him to learn those techniques vs learning from the guys who've been there and done it. Go.
 
You're sounding brand new right now. Maybe you're not up on all the history...

In any case, I think I identified the big divide. With GUE, you ARE getting training from the agency. There one way to do things thats taught from all the different instructors. Lights go here, regs go here, donate like this, communicate like that, mark lines like this, switch stages like that. Diver A who was trained by an NSS instructor might do it totally different than diver B who was trained by a different NSS instructor. Tough to have much cohesiveness with a training method like that.

GUE also reevaluates ALL its instructors annually (might be every two years). That's how you keep the quality up. You clearly admit that other agencies have "sloppy, fatigued, uncaring" instructors. I challenge you to find one of those in GUE. I'll save you the effort - there aren't any. And you're going to ague that the agency that can't maintain its instructor corps, doesn't have a consistent message, and doesn't reliably produce solid students is the 'better' choice. Wut?

Now, tell me about Jimmy Wyatt's experience in doing deep long cave dives, and tell me why I should go to him to learn those techniques vs learning from the guys who've been there and done it. Go.

What "history" aren't I up on? GUE was founded in 1998- so there ain't much "history" to be up on.

Please enlighten me on their long- time tested history of DIVE INSTRUCTION- which is what the op is seeking...
 
Dude, just quit talking. Even their competition respects them. They produce solid students. Their instructors really are that good, and they do big dives safely.

And me and PfcAJ pretty much can't stand each other. What other evidence you want? Hell, you couldn't have two more opposing camps, IANTD and GUE, ASA and WKPP.
 
Dude, just quit talking. Even their competition respects them. They produce solid students. Their instructors really are that good, and they do big dives safely.

And me and PfcAJ pretty much can't stand each other. What other evidence you want? Hell, you couldn't have two more opposing camps, IANTD and GUE, ASA and WKPP.

It's amazing that you can accept a training agency with less than a 15 year track record can be quantified as "where it's at" in a field (cave diving) that has been around in the us since the 60s with ALL the standards having been set by the NACD & NSSCDS.

How far apart can IANTD be with any Florida cave agency Tom Mount has trained or inspired about every cave diver and set the original nitrox world in motion ....

Hazy shades of winter... Must be the Florida water...

---------- Post added January 16th, 2015 at 10:16 PM ----------

http://vimeo.com/115525697

I know twin dees isn't a real cave exploration site...
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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