inverted manifolded twins

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Speaking as someone who straps on an "inverted bottle" every day at work (and breathes from it in zero vis), I can emphatically say it is:

  • easier to open/close valve
  • less likely to entangle
  • easier to switch out for fresh bottle

Yes, I've worn doubles inverted too.

When this comes up in conversation, it's been my experience that the only one in ten (if that many) of the nay-sayers have actually tried it.....


All the best, James
 
Hose routing and lengths need to be addressed to keep things tidy, but I agree with FDOG, inverted works great for firefighing. Don't see why it would be a problem for scuba. Boat tank racks would need to be modified.
 
Inverted doubles went out of style in the US (for good reason) somewhere in the early 1990s.

What were the good reasons?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

As someone who enjoys exploring different equipment configurations without bias I am always intrigued by real vs perceived issues and the forces that form conventional wisdom. Three artificial forces currently at play in diving (IMO) are standardization, the law of primacy and the use of equipment required for the most committed forms of diving for all forms of diving. I say artificial because, while they may provide a good platform for individuals or agencies to build safe diving practices on, they are not inherrantly needed for safe diving itself and are often taken out of context. When one chooses those parameters to assess equipment needs there can only be a very limited number of options left available and many viable choices are dismissed without otherwise valid reasoning.

Standardization is a great idea within a team but one has to realise that it also stiffles creativity and one has to understand by who, and for what reason, the standards are being set.

The law of primacy may exist but it is often misused as a way of discouraging exploration. It's pretty tempting to turn "that which is learned first is learned best" into "don't confuse yourself by learning anything different". Personally I believe that the more tools in my tool box, the better; and exploring different configurations allows me to be more adaptive. I place a high value on adaptiveness although I will admit I am more a generalist than a specialist in matters relating to SCUBA which skues my thinking somewhat.

Bottom up or "every dive is a cave dive" thinking means that many viable OW configurations are dismissed because they will not be optimal within the most committed types of diving. That's ok if one subscribes to that form of standardization but it also throws a lot of babies out with the bathwater.

I'm not bashing any agencies or philosophies btw, I actually have a lot of respect for the strength of their regimes, but I also recognise when those same regimes may stifle otherwise workable applications. I also appreciate others challenging my ideas as a valuable way of testing and illuminating the weaknesses in my POV (which, on rare occasions may happen... theoretically).

On a practical note regarding inverted tanks: I find it interesting when one worries about valve damage. Inverted divers worry on the boat and valve up divers worry during the dive.
 
There are very simple and effective stretching techniques that will enable most people to reach the valves with regular stretching. If done regularly, increases in reach can be huge!!!!!

This is super-helpful. Do you have illustrations to go with the directions you posted?
 
What were the good reasons?

Nonstandard hose lengths and custom sizing
Requires cages to protect the valves which additional crap can tangle in
Isolator not so easy an issue as it seems
Not only can't you see the bubbles but you can't hear them anymore as well
Can't communicate with buddy while they help with problem

Sidemount requires custom-ish hose lengths (although many folks have roughly standardized and you can make do with in-stock lengths if you need to) but otherwise have none of these issues.

Not that sidemount is issue free, no configuration is, but inverted manifolded doubles has the worst attributes of many configurations and few benefits compared to competing options.
 
Nonstandard hose lengths and custom sizing

A 5 to 7' hose works fine. A lot of divers on this forum seam to use them.

Requires cages to protect the valves which additional crap can tangle in

More crap yes, but there is substantially less entanglement risk since it is protected by your butt and on one side, is not on the leading edge, and can more easily be reached in confined spaces. There are a lot more incident free underwater hours using the valve-down configuration in the commercial and military communities than the technical diving community can ever catch up to.

Isolator not so easy an issue as it seems

Isolator valve access is a lot easier than on valve up rigs. Reaching your butt in a dry suit is easier for most people than reaching the center of shoulders.

Not only can't you see the bubbles but you can't hear them anymore as well

I don’t understand this. What bubbles?

Can't communicate with buddy while they help with problem

What kind of problem?

Sidemount requires custom-ish hose lengths (although many folks have roughly standardized and you can make do with in-stock lengths if you need to) but otherwise have none of these issues.

Not that sidemount is issue free, no configuration is, but inverted manifolded doubles has the worst attributes of many configurations and few benefits compared to competing options.

Side mounts are fine except they are extremely awkward to actually do anything in, including get aboard a boat, turn around in confined spaces, let alone swim. My experience with valve-up and valve-down rigs is completely inconsistent with your conclusions.
 
A 5 to 7' hose works fine. A lot of divers on this forum seam to use them.

Think about how much further the hose has to reach to travel single file, 7ft not gonna work. ~9ft will be required to have the equivelant reach of a 7ft on upright doubles. At least the upside down right post still rolls "on" though.

Isolator valve access is a lot easier than on valve up rigs. Reaching your butt in a dry suit is easier for most people than reaching the center of shoulders.
not while in reasonable trim

I don’t understand this. What bubbles?

What kind of problem?

The bubbles/leak which are necessitating shutting down a valve(s) in the first place - what the OP's buddy suposedly can't reach in the upright orientation. the whole issue which is driving the inverted doubles.
 
Think about how much further the hose has to reach to travel single file, 7ft not gonna work. ~9ft will be required to have the equivelant reach of a 7ft on upright doubles. At least the upside down right post still rolls "on" though.

The length required is the same if the objective is for the other diver to be to your side rather than above you.

not while in reasonable trim

I have never found trim to be effected with either configuration. Besides, easily reaching valves during an emergency in confined spaces trumps trim considerations in my mind.

The bubbles/leak which are necessitating shutting down a valve(s) in the first place - what the OP's buddy suposedly can't reach in the upright orientation. the whole issue which is driving the inverted doubles.

IMHO, that is a stretch. Sound transmission underwater is such that 2' more from your ear is irrelevant. You and your buddy will hear a significant leak, like a torn IP hose, and should shut isolation valves before trying figure out which diver it is coming from — unless maybe you feel the end of the hose whipping you black and blue. Nobody is going to hear a small leak unless your primary is a rebreather. Besides, your buddy's head will be out of your view either case so communication is the same.

Protection from impact and entanglement is my primary reason for preferring valve-down, ergonomics is second. I find your dismissal of the experience of firefighters, mine safety crews, commercial divers, and a lot of advanced sport divers in the North Sea is not driven by sound situational analysis.

The valve up configuration makes a lot of sense for diving from shore. You are far more likely to get knocked on your butt transiting the surf. That is the main reason that the valve up configuration dominates recreational diving all over the world. Wreck, cave, commercial, military construction/salvage, and boat diving invert the equation favoring valve-down. This is not something deemed law by King Neptune, but there is a lot of analysis supporting the option.

I really don’t care other than I don’t like to see insufficiently supported statements go unanalyzed on an international forum like Scubabaord.
 
The length required is the same if the objective is for the other diver to be to your side rather than above you.

Do you understand the reason for a long hose? It's not for side-by-side swimming...

Besides, easily reaching valves during an emergency in confined spaces trumps trim considerations in my mind.

So killing the vis in an overhead environment due to a configuration that doesn't allow you to easily stay in trim seems ideal to you? Weird.

You ... should shut isolation valves before trying figure out which diver it is coming from

Besides, your buddy's head will be out of your view either case so communication is the same.

If the valves are right behind your head and you can easily tell which side is leaking, why wouldn't you just turn off that post?

Having your buddy able to easily check which side is leaking is a real benefit. It also allows for much easier fixes than sticking the valves behind you.

For those that can't reach their valves behind their head, they'd be better off side-mounting where you can more easily see and access your own valves.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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