Logging, OW vs pool

[HowardE]

"These people have virtually no experience, and they are "rescue" divers??? Would you trust a lifeguard with only 10 hours of swimming experience" ... I have rescue training , I am not a rescue diver ... I am a safer diver

DB

I just want to clarify too what I said... I don't think that rescue TRAINING is a bad idea for new divers... I just think that certifying them is. I think that experience is the best educator, and lack of true experience, while carrying a card that says you ARE "advanced" or "Rescue" is a dangerous mix...

 

[MtnDiver]

"One dive done a thousand times."

Roak

So, by the same logic, if you recreationally dive the same reef 1000 times (or more realistically 20-30 times), you're saying there should only be one log entry in your log book?

I don't see the logic.

 

[DiverDebbie]

This discussion came up recently for me. So straight from the PADI instructor manual:

"For training purposes, an open water dive is a dive during which a
student diver spends the majority of time at a depth of at least 5 metres/
15 feet and:
a. breathes at least 1400 litres or 50 cubic feet of compressed gas.
OR
b. remains submerged for at least 20 minutes."

So I'd say keep track of whatever you want, but if you are planning to log dives towards courses such as DM or instructor, then no, pool time, setting the float, etc. don't count, so maybe log but don't number them.

 

[roakey]

So, by the same logic, if you recreationally dive the same reef 1000 times (or more realistically 20-30 times), you're saying there should only be one log entry in your log book?

I don't see the logic.

The logic is the experience level. If you did that one dive a thousand times you'd dive that reef in an awsome manner. And there's a good chance you'd panic and bolt to the surface if you jumped in one of our cold lakes with chocolate-soup vis, because despite the thousand dives, you're not very experienced.

I guess this topic touches a nerve. Every time I see a "should I log sticking my head in the sink as a dive?" (yes, this is the umpteenth posting of the very same question that could have been found via a search before establishing a new topic) it tells me one thing -- someone who wants to beat their chest on the dive boat or is yet another up and coming fast track instructor who won't know how to dive well teaching others not to dive well.

I took an excellent class a couple of years ago, the instructor started out by asking "how many dives do you have?" The first student responded with about 1500. What kind of diving? She responded Cozumel, some lakes around here and Blue Hole -- mostly teaching. The instructor responded, Ok, you have three dives -- what about you? The next person responded in a similar vein and it was boiled down to two dives. Then we caught on. I told them four dives, I think the max in the class was six.

Yes, the instructor did this with a smile on his face, but he was also making a point. You gain experience through exposure to different kinds of diving, not doing the same exact thing over and over again -- which is exactly what many instructors with 2000 dives do.

Personally I don't care what anyone logs -- it's painfully obvious when everyone jumps in the water who's experinced and who isn't. There are folks with 20 dives who are very experienced. There are others with many logged dives who look like they should have never graduated OW.

You're from my town -- would you disagree with the assessment that the majority of Colorado divers, some with over a hundred dives, have NEVER dived without a DM in the water with them? That most of them, if they dared Blue Hole for their open water checkout dives, have never dove anyplace but warm water destinations? Some with them with a considerable number of dives in their log? Do you feel that their dive count is linear with their experience level?

So it's the motivation behind the question that gets me uppity, not the answer.

Roak

 

[Rick Inman]

I don't log pool dives.

Oh... that's right. I don't do pool dives.

Actually, now that I think about it, I don't log any dives.

I just want to clarify too what I said... I don't think that rescue TRAINING is a bad idea for new divers... I just think that certifying them is. I think that experience is the best educator, and lack of true experience, while carrying a card that says you ARE "advanced" or "Rescue" is a dangerous mix...

Agree somewhat about card collectors. However, your statement on "rescue" is too blanket.

I know a diver with hundreds of dives who couldn't rescue me out of an inflatable kiddie pool. He has diving experience, and no card.

I know a "rescue certified" diver with hundreds of dives who goes all gooey if anything out of the norm happens. He has lots of experience, and the card.

I know a diver with less than fifty dives, rescue certified, who has his act together, and I would trust my life to him in a rescue situation. He has little diving experience, plus the card.

Point is, I think your statement is too generalized. It's more about the person than it is about "experience' or the card.

.02

 

[Charlie99]

So, by the same logic, if you recreationally dive the same reef 1000 times (or more realistically 20-30 times), you're saying there should only be one log entry in your log book?

I don't see the logic.

The logic is "why take up room in my log with repetitive data". Often I'll log 4 or 5 dives on one page when it's a site that I've been to repeatedly.

To paraphrase the Rich Murchison post back 3 or 4 posts ..... I log any and everything that might be useful reference info for me in the future, even sometimes dives that never took place because the boat canceled out or conditions were too bad; I only count those dives that are "real" dives.

 

[roakey]

Yes, logging versus counting is an interesting discussion point!

Roak

 

[Scottri]

I don't log them. If I did I'd have to add more shelf space. Most people I know don't log them. I don't log some dives I do with OW classes either. If I take 2 students on a tour, return to the beach for 2 more and have not had at least a 10 minute surface interval I log it as 1 dive. I don't think I would ever take a DM candidate seriously if they used pool dives to pad experience in order to get into the DM program. If I logged them it would be in a seperate log book to keep track of training details.

 

[MtnDiver]

The logic is the experience level. If you did that one dive a thousand times you'd dive that reef in an awsome manner. And there's a good chance you'd panic and bolt to the surface if you jumped in one of our cold lakes with chocolate-soup vis, because despite the thousand dives, you're not very experienced.

Roak

Then why do you argue against instructors logging training dives? Every time an instructor goes in with a class of students, they are gaining experience teaching.

If you were an instructor applying for a job with a new outfit, they'd want to know how many dives you've made as instructor. I'd like to see the look on their face when you hand your log book to them and there are zero dives logged as an instructor.

My point to all of this is, that I think that every dive should be logged, just like every flight is logged for pilots. It should be a complete record of your experience. The difference comes in how the person reading the logged information chooses to interpret it.

 

[roakey]

Then why do you argue against instructors logging training dives? Every time an instructor goes in with a class of students, they are gaining experience teaching.

Because it only takes a couple dozen times of seeing an instructor with 1500 dives hanging vertically in the water and bouncing off of reefs to realize that something is very broken with the concept of dive count = diving experience.

You said it yourself above -- they're gaining teaching experience. I'm agreeing in that they're not gaining diving experience.

Roak