Ok Dudes and Dudettes...DIR-F

[JimC]

I agree with many thing so far in this thread, but 2 things jumped out at me which I disagree with.

Short vs Long course.

OW means you and your buddy can go off and dive alone, in cold and dark waters. The basics are fine if all your doing is guided dives in easy water. But thats not what this course is, this course NEEDS to teach a student how to dive with a buddy off the dock at the cottage 100 miles from the nearest dive profesonal.

Assuming you have a good OW instructor who drills in the water skills and the importance of blindly following the rules your prepared well for an easy, shalow, good vis pre-packadged dive. Your not prepared to show up at a typical Ontario shore dive with a buddy, some dive tables and a rough idea of what to expect and have an enjoyable dive.

I had a great instructor. Both my wife and I were excelent students who picked up skills easily, praticed them on our own and had a very good grasp of the pysics, rules, whys and hows when our OW course ended. We were confident in our abilites, we preformed very well in OW checkouts, calm, relaxed.. everything a new diver should be.. but often is not.

Our first post OW dive in 10 foot vis, sandy bottom, 20 ffw, unguided dive was a nervous mess of poor boyancey, pathetic buddy skills and a general cluser f***.

It took me a good 20 dives to get to where I thought I was resonably competent. Another 3 untill our first 'wopse' and underwater problem to decide I had a heck of a lot of learning and training to do. Fortunatly we spent a FULL class on dive planing and we were in no danger, turned the dive, safely acended with gas to spare.

(Hothgarian plug)
The problem was a poor buddy check which missed an 1/2 opened valve, which caused what seemd to be gas loss at exactly the worst point in the dive.

BtW the long hose I donated definatly made the long LONG long swim back from stacked anchors and hulls while sharring air much more comfortable than a standard octo. I think if we had not have had the long hose we would have ended up surfacing way out from shore and likely would have ended up being rescued by the coast guard.


Diveing is safer now.

Yes it is, very much so. But saying that is because instruction is better is bad logic. There are a great multitude of factors which could all impact saftey, all of them without any good proof and range from more pre-packadged guided dives to more reliable gear.





My big 3:

Experince
Training
Planning

DIR-F is not about DIR or GUE. Its about training in basic skills which every single diver can benifit from being better at. The only non-rec requierment for the course is the long hose configuration. Something which has had more than enugh debate to try to justify here.

If you have the oportunity to take basic skills training, under a quality instructor, make ever effort to do so. DIR-F or not, your diveing will benifit dramaticaly.

 

[Tom R]

Jim,

Enjoying Florida?

Tom

 

[ScubaScott]

Well said JimC

SS

 

[seahunter]

Well said Jim C ... but contradictory!

You claim to have had a good instructor yet you went on a first post-cert dive which was beyond your capabilities AND apparently didn't even realize it!

I like your statement "Assuming you have a good OW instructor who drills in the water skills and the importance of blindly following the rules your prepared well for an easy, shalow, good vis pre-packadged dive. " because that's exactly what the Open Water course is for.
Perhaps that's the problem - too many think that the O/W course is supposed to make experienced divers! Two days or 12 weeks is inmaterial - the graduate is NOT prepared to "... go off and dive alone, in cold and dark waters." nor is he supposed to be.
The content of every basic course clearly teaches that your first dives (the number varies from 20 to 60 in different courses) should be in shallow, clear water and preferably with a professional (is that what you mean by "pre-packaged" dives? They are commonly referred to as 'canned' dives). In your case the number should have been at least 23 because that's where the first problem appeared and that's where you need a professional who should have been showing you how to avoid those problems.

What makes you (or anyone) think that a newly certified diver can jump into the water anywhere with an experienced diver and do just fine. That's bad logic - he has no experience!!

You are correct that there are several factors that have made scuba diving safer now than before but the greatest is the training. The only equipment improvement that has contributed directly to increased diver safety is the BC and that is useless without training. Putting a new BC on an untrained diver won't keep him safe! Nor will a 7' octo hose. The length of the hose has nothing to do with diver safety - it's all about diver rescue.

You're also right on about the additional skill training that comes from supervised experience whether on a con-ed course with your own instructor or on a stand-alone skill upgrade course like gooey.

It would be a mistake to go backward in scuba training and try to include all that in the basic course. I say go backward because that's what it would be. We've been there! By the time the new diver finished the course, he would be frustrated, he would have forgotten the all-important first few lessons (the current O/W course) and he would not have those vital initial skills drilled in. It's those skills that allow him to dive safely - the additonal skill development from a con-ed course make it easier, more enjoyable and help him to avoid problems and thus allow him to venture out on his own without supervision.

 

[JimC]

What makes you (or anyone) think that a newly certified diver can jump into the water anywhere with an experienced diver and do just fine.

While not -anywhere-, but in my case condisions were very simmilar to my checkouts. A bit less vis and shalower.

From naui.org

OVERVIEW
Scuba Diver is the NAUI entry level scuba certification course. It provides the fundamental knowledge and skills to scuba dive. Upon successful completion of this course, graduates are considered competent to engage in open water diving activities without supervision, provided the diving activities and the areas dived approximate those of training


The padi website tells us basicaly nothing, but I am sure it has simmilar verbadge.



So whats the deal? Do these courses meet there objectives? Can ever single graduate go off and dive with confidence in areas simmilar to there checkouts?

Can ANY graduate?

More training, more experince as part of the class or give them a learners permit which requires supervison. Go back to the old way? Got no idea if it was better or worse, since I was never trained back then. I will trust you there and say training is better now. But it is lacking when it comes to fufilling its end objective.


Contradictory, yep. Your right, my post was contradictory. I was a good student and was unprepared to dive alone. My instructor was good, going well beyond the requirements of the course. Offering extended time, one on one instruction at no charge. You name it and he was there to help you. We still routinely dive with him and he has become a good friend.

So again, what is wrong with this picture?


It takes a good 50 hours+ of pratical experince to have a license to kill someone in a plane... in the daytime... in perfect weather.

Scuba is what 2 hours or less? Another 2-3 to do it at 100 ffw at night?

 

[Bubble Boy]

Thats why clubs are good. A group of divers continuing in their experience and thereby learning. As the saying goes a responsible diver is always learning.

 

[Bubble Boy]

Any water skill development will help you in your diving. Find a club or store sponsored group that is doing some activities to help with your ongoing learning. Some of the divers on this board in the Brockville, Cornwall and Ottawa areas are playing underwater hockey and that helps them keep up the snorkelling skills over the winter.

Even if you dont want to dive in the winter months find a dive club or local dive store that is going out to do an ice dive and just watch and learn. I am sure they would welcome you with open arms and even pass you a shovel.

 

[jrtonkin]

Bah. I wrote a nice long reply, that got eaten by the board timeout-ing while I was in the middle of it.

Anyways, to start, sorry to throw down the gauntlet and then run away... School decided to eat a couple of days there.

So lets start at the beginning, course objective.

We went up to Tobermory for our open-water weekend, and did a bunch of the shallower dives there: Lighthouse point, Dave's Bay, Sweepstakes/Grand Rapids, and Minch.

So that's the standard I consider my training to have gone to, and what I should be able to repeat on my own with minimal supervision.

Do you think that this is a reasonable goal for a first course. Cold water, daylight but with somewhat limited visibility (make out another diver at 15 to 20' away), less than 60' deep, a mix of shore and boat diving, no significant current.

Jamie

 

[Groundhog246]

jrtonkin once bubbled...
We went up to Tobermory for our open-water weekend, and did a bunch of the shallower dives there: Lighthouse point, Dave's Bay, Sweepstakes/Grand Rapids, and Minch.

So that's the standard I consider my training to have gone to, and what I should be able to repeat on my own with minimal supervision.

Do you think that this is a reasonable goal for a first course. Cold water, daylight but with somewhat limited visibility (make out another diver at 15 to 20' away), less than 60' deep, a mix of shore and boat diving, no significant current.
Jamie

Reasonable goal, yes. What was your max depth? I know a diver who deepest cert dive was 25 feet in a quarry, yet got a C-card certifying him to 60 feet????

My training sounds like it was similar to yours (Also did it at Toby). Gradually deeper dives to a max of 55 feet. How many dives since, how soon after did you next dive? How many and how long since cert?
My LDS strongly encouraged getting wet again asap. Of course I could be cynical and say that's so I'd have to rent or buy gear. But they reasoned that if you get actively involved while the training is fresh, in the long term you will remember more and have better skills. I probably lucked out (although it the nrom for those who cert with the same LDS and get out and dive), most of my early dives were with small groups and I was frequently buddied with an instructor or divemaster who "coached" me along in my skills development. There was nothing like watching an experienced diver, properly weighted, in complete control of his buoyancy, stop and hover 12" to 18" off the bottom and I yo-yo'd around, to inspire me to do better. Of course you have to want to do better, some are content to "till" the bottom, which is perhaps another "gap" in their training.
My first and most serious incident to date was around my 15 dive (don't have my log handy), on a shore dive, at 50ffw, my buddies reg free-flowed. Took me about 15 to 20 seconds before I fully realized the bubble stream was continuous, he hadn't noticed yet. I got his attention, indicated a problem, pulled my octo from it's holder in case it was required, and we made a "textbook" controlled ascent. If you've never done an straight up ascent from 50 feet, with no guideline, you should try it. At the 25 foot mark, when viz isn't much more, maintaing your ascent rate and keeping contact with your buddy is not such an easy task.

Not sure where JimC certified Scuba is what 2 hours or less? Another 2-3 to do it at 100 ffw at night?, but that's downright scary and certainly not adequate. I spent about 10 hours in a classroom and another 8 to 10 in a pool and over 2 hours of certifying dives for OW.

 

[SneakyB'tard]

2-3 hours?!?
...Sounds like someone got 'certified' down south!
Everyting be Iree..... breath ere, don't worry mon , ok dive!