Online Dive Vendors/Dealers

[O2BBubbleFree]

but in larger markets, we have larger sporting goods stores taking as much or more business away from the LDS as online stores, while offering little in the way of expertise and true service/value.

Really? The only large sporting goods stores I have seen that carried SCUBA gear (beyond cheap snorkeling stuff) was Jumbo Sports, and they've gone under.

As far as the true service/value, as I've implied before, I don't buy it. I went into the LDS to ask if they could service my reg. since I have a different brand of primary and secondary. The guy at the counter (and only employee in the shop) said, "let me see." then opened the phonebook and read off the list of regs that they advertise. He isn't even certified himself.

At all the dive shops I've visited, it's been nearly impossible to get a question answered. Their mindset is on sales, not education.

I'm curious, Rich, what's your connection? Your bio doesn't mention a connection to the industry, but you're sharing inside information (like your commint on the affect of sporting goods chains). I only ask because I learned long ago that it's important to understand someones perspective when considering what they have to say.

 

[RichLockyer]

Really? The only large sporting goods stores I have seen that carried SCUBA gear (beyond cheap snorkeling stuff) was Jumbo Sports, and they've gone under.

We've got Sport Chalet covering Southern California. I don't know if they've expanded to other states or north of Santa Barbara or not.

said, "let me see." then opened the phonebook and read off the list of regs that they advertise. He isn't even certified himself.

I've run into "we service what we sell" and had a tech refuse to service one of my regs that was actually the same brand (but a different model) from what they sell.

At all the dive shops I've visited, it's been nearly impossible to get a question answered. Their mindset is on sales, not education.

This can be a big problem, and it's a viscious circle. Shop looses business to online sources or a sporting goods store and needs to increase margins to keep the doors open, leading to higher prices and more customer discontent, driving more customers away, leading to more cost cutting and hiring of less-skilled workers (or flat-out laying off workers and overloading himself)....
The cycle isn't going to stop with a price battle, because the LDS can't compete. It MUST stop with attitude and service, and if it doesn't, the shop won't last long.
Here in SoCal, it started as early as the late 70's with a company called Best Products selling Aqua Lung at substantial discounts. My buddy and his family bought 4 Conshelf XIVs from them.

I'm curious, Rich, what's your connection? Your bio doesn't mention a connection to the industry, but you're sharing inside information.

No connection to the industry. I'm an electrician/traffic signal technician.
Unlike many others here, I do have a good relationship with several LDS owners, but I'm not sharing any information that is not readily available for someone willing to do the homework and ask the right questions.

The dive industry is no different from the music industry.
It is highly specialized with a limited long-term market, but with extremely broad appeal and a huge potential market (anyone can dive!...anyone can be a rock star!). Like the music industry, after a rather large initial investment, most end up making small "nickle and dime" purchases from then on, except for the few who continue seriously and upgrade their equipment (and they too rely heavily on the used market).
... and the same policies and restrictions have driven the mom & pop music stores out of business, to be replaced by Guitar Center, Sam Ash, Musician's Friend, and other large chains. Quality, and service have all gone down. The market is flooded with cheap equipment that brings in millions from new customers, and while a high quality instrument can still be over $3,000 - $10,000, there are few working at the shops who are qualified to perform a proper setup.

What has happened to the local mom & pop hardware store? Home Depot, Lowes, Eagle, etc....
Auto parts?
Wal-Mart and Leisurepro are not the problem.

Business is business, and the world market is changing. Like it or not, the days of the LDS are numbered. Those who can adapt and continue to provide their customers with valuable service will survive. Those who complain about how things are going and sit and whish that it were still 1975 will fail.

A co-op works great for commodities. High volume consumables that are generic in nature... ya, but not for large, high-dollar, specialized equipment.

So what WOULD a co-op work for in the dive industry? Small parts... hardware, o-rings, items like that. The market has an answer to that as well. I get my O-rings from McMaster-Carr, and a bag of 100 Buna costs me $5-$10 depending on the size. Viton is a little more, but for $60 I picked up enough of every hose and reg connection to maintain all of my gear and my buddy's gear for many years.

 

[scubatoys]

They CAN NOT give a MFG warranty, as most online stores are not authorized dealers. They may choose to give their own, store warranty, which is only good at their store.
.

Not true for all on line stores. We are an authorized dealer for everything we sell, and there is no difference between buying the products on line - or in the store. Either way, it is a full manufacturers warranty. I understand this is not true for all on line shops - but just wanted to correct the blanket statement.

Bottom line, the physical stores have a lot of overhead the online stores don't:
1. An experienced sales staff to man the store from 9-9
We've got 8 guys 6 days a week.. experienced?? I'm a course director, other guys are instructor trainers, Instructors, and we've been diving for years.

2. A large retail facility with ample floor space so you can move around the spacious isles and see and touch the merchandise, and perhaps even an onsite pool.
Ok.. 10,000 ft building with 6,000 ft showroom - see for yourself on our Remote Controled Web Cam, and yes, our pool is 12 feet deep, 35 feet long.. You can check out Building of the Shop and Pool Here .

3. Lights for a well lighted attractive sales floor (warehouses don’t need as much.
Yea... got lights... all kinds - plus neon signs, displays, etc.

4. Carpet, and a people and equipment to clean the store
Decideded to go with stained concrete instead... more modern look and easier to keep clean...Hope this doesn't defeat my point...

5. Shoplifting losses
We just shoot them with spear guns, and I've known on line places to take huge losses due to credit card frauds... much higher amounts than any store would lose to shoplifters.

6. Heat for that large floor space.
Since we're in Texas - we need Air Conditioning more than heat.

7. Water for the pool
Uh huh. We found it makes the dive training easier... otherwise the giant stride entry gets a little painful.

8. Local State, county, and city sales tax.
Yea, got those -... and property tax... there's another 18,000 in property tax.

9. Air compressor so they can sell air. Only one online store that I have heard of sells air for diving, and I would not dive a tank using their online fill system.
We're working on the USB cable to fill tanks from email attachements... but until it's finished, we have a Rix and a Bauer.

Bottom line is we need local dive shops. Yes some are thiefs and charge way too much or make and endorse videos of riding angles sharks and deserve to go out of business.

But answer this, where would your diving be without a local dive shop?

Just wanted to point out not all online shops are the same. Some of us are authorized to sell, knowledgable about our products, and teach scuba as well as sell gear on line.

 

[scubatoad]

Pasley,

I am also a business owner/manager and agree, in principle, with much of what you say. Where I disagree is that you would rather have a customer stay away from your store before they came in and simply "looked around" for items that they intended to purchase online. I would rather give my sales staff "a shot at them" before I dimiss them as a waste of time. The sales folks agree with me too. I can't tell you how many times I have walked into a store just to kill a few minutes (with ZERO intention on buying anything), while my wife was shopping, and walked out with a significant purchase prompted by a sales person. Give the LDS a chance to prove their "value added" approach before you buy elsewhere. If they cannot convince you that they are "adding value" move on! Just my opinion.

 

[RichLockyer]

Just wanted to point out not all online shops are the same. Some of us are authorized to sell, knowledgable about our products, and teach scuba as well as sell gear on line.

I think Scubatoys is currently the exception, and hopefully, a forerunner of things to come... what I was talking about when I mentioned the current LDS adapting or failing.
Keep it up guys! :thumbs_up

 

[RobinG]

I've run into "we service what we sell" and had a tech refuse to service one of my regs that was actually the same brand (but a different model) from what they sell.


Fortunately I don't run into this much...I'm military and if I had to get my stuff serviced where I bought it (much of it 15 years ago and a LOT of moves ago!) I'd have to stop diving!

But my husband bought a new reg and computer at an LDS I like(d) where we're currently stationed, with lifetime service free. Lifetime, however, turned out to be the two years the shop stayed open. And yes we bought other stuff there too.

The only shop left in town has awfully high prices, so I do look around, but it's a 2-3 hour drive to look. And no one has ever had in stock the size/style of anything I was after.

I want to buy local but it's doggone hard to do.

Robin

 

[The Kraken]

Scubatoys Larry,
You are a perfect example of marketing.
One of the basic truths of marketing is "innovate or die".
You've watched the market, you've studied the way consumers are purchasing and have incorporated that into your business and marketing matrix. Good for you!!!
Another addage of marketing is that "it takes money to make money". Evidently you have put your earnings back into your business. That's how the American economy was shaped. The rules of business never change, just the media mix which is used to service the market.
I know you can't carry every brand of diving gear that's manufactured, the cost of inventory would be too prohibitive. This leaves the door open of another LDS to pattern its methods of doing business like yours and to supply that part of the market which you can't supply based upon brands sold.
Congrats on doing a good job in BUSINESS.
LDS's like you and like Diver's Supply, who not only sell but train and teach as well, will become the standard in the diving market because of you marketing skills.
There will be some smaller LDS's that will survive, but I predict that their numbers will be falling rapidly and they will be very few in number in 10 years.

Good luck with your business.

Dennis, MBA/ Marketing, Georgia Institute of Technology

 

[O2BBubbleFree]

Scubatoys Larry,
You are a perfect example of marketing.
One of the basic truths of marketing is "innovate or die".
You've watched the market, you've studied the way consumers are purchasing and have incorporated that into your business and marketing matrix. Good for you!!!
Another addage of marketing is that "it takes money to make money". Evidently you have put your earnings back into your business. That's how the American economy was shaped. The rules of business never change, just the media mix which is used to service the market.
I know you can't carry every brand of diving gear that's manufactured, the cost of inventory would be too prohibitive. This leaves the door open of another LDS to pattern its methods of doing business like yours and to supply that part of the market which you can't supply based upon brands sold.
Congrats on doing a good job in BUSINESS.
LDS's like you and like Diver's Supply, who not only sell but train and teach as well, will become the standard in the diving market because of you marketing skills.
There will be some smaller LDS's that will survive, but I predict that their numbers will be falling rapidly and they will be very few in number in 10 years.

Good luck with your business.

Dennis, MBA/ Marketing, Georgia Institute of Technology

Here Here!

Too bad the LDSs that don't realize the realities of the Internet age probably won't be reading these posts. And if they do, they still won't change. "We've never done it that way before." could be the last seven (and a half) words uttered by the LDS.

 

[Mike Newman]

Larry - it's good to see someone keep a sense of humor about this eternal debate.

All your points in defense of Scubatoys are right on the money.

End of the day - Jewish law or no Jewish law - buying your dive gear is a personal choice. Goodness knows, there's been enough debate on the LDS vs Online topic on this Board to give everyone a vote.

Good luck to all who own, operate, buy, sell or otherwise conduct transactions to do with the great sport / pastime of SCUBA. Let's focus on the positive and try to ensure that all the newbies (and some of us older ones too) stay safe and get the most we can from SCUBA - and VFM too.

 

[pasley]

Here Here!
Too bad the LDSs that don't realize the realities of the Internet age probably won't be reading these posts. And if they do, they still won't change. "We've never done it that way before." could be the last seven (and a half) words uttered by the LDS.

It is not that the LDS do not recognize the new realities, it is in most cases, that the MFG will not permit them to sell on the internet and remain an authorized dealer. The LDS is the little guy stuck in the middle between the MFG and the customer and trying to survive.

Maybe in time the MFG will change and allow them to sell on the internet. Things do change.