Out of Air on Descent

[doctormike]

Also if its properly configured, the reg will pull right out of the bungee

If properly configured, the reg will never pull out of the bungee. Of course, there are many ways of doing anything, but my backup second stage is for me, after I have donated my primary to an OOG diver. I have it in very tightly, so that it will always be right under my chin when I need it.

 

[LoonDiver]

A couple of things occur to me than no one has touched on. You need to reevaluate your decent procedures and weighting. If you dump all the air out of your BC and start to descend quickly, you are overweighed and likely by a fair amount. If you have more than a small amount of air remaining in your BC at the surface when you start a dive, you are overweighed. Too many divers think the decent should start instantly and be fast, if it is, you are overweighed. Properly weighted, after you completely deflate your BC and breath out, it should take a few seconds before you start a slow but increasing decent, if it's instantaneous and fast, you are overweighed. This is especially true of the first dive since there are pockets of trapped air on and around your exposure suit that add a fair amount of extra buoyancy at the start of a dive. The next issue I see and it's overweight and over speed related as well is why you could not just swim your rig back up. Properly weighted and your BC properly used, you should never be more than a pound or 2 negative at any given point during the decent, it is a "controlled" decent after all. In fact, you should actually never be negative or positive during any accent or decent but rather always neutral, controlling your accent/decent with your breath and adjusting the BC accordingly as you change depth so you neutral. If you are properly weighted and using your BC for proper buoyancy (at the absolute most a couple of pounds negative at any given point) its very easy to swim your gear back up with little effort. In your case, had both of you been neutral, one of you could have very easily returned both of you to the surface while sharing air using breath control alone. There are times when exceptions need to be made, like tech diving where loads of gas need to be compensated for or where dive site requirements make a fast decent necessary but in general, descents and accents should be slow and graceful, as should all movement in diving.

Herman, you make some very interesting points about weighting. We still have a lot to learn. One thing that was throwing us off on this day of diving was it was our first time with new wetsuits - mine was a 7mm and his was 5mm. Neither of us had been in wetsuits that thick since our OW training 2 years ago. When I got in the water with that 7mm, I felt like the Michelin man and added quite a bit more weight than I usually carry, just to feel like I could get underwater. On the dive when this incident occurred, I had dropped 2 pounds from what I carried on our first dive of the day and had to sweep my hands up in order to start my descent even with an empty BCD. But I noticed on the first dive that once we were under a few feet, our descent accelerated more rapidly than I am used to, maybe due to wetsuit compression? Like I said, we still have a lot to learn and were unfamiliar with the wetsuits. Our dive plan was for an easy tour at 25 - 30 ft (about where the thermo-cline is) just hanging out with and feeding the (very) friendly fish there. We did in fact go ahead and do that dive. I plan to learn more about what to expect from a 7mm wetsuit before I dive in it again.

---------- Post Merged at 06:15 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 06:06 PM ----------

If properly configured, the reg will never pull out of the bungee. Of course, there are many ways of doing anything, but my backup second stage is for me, after I have donated my primary to an OOG diver. I have it in very tightly, so that it will always be right under my chin when I need it.

I don't call it a "bungee", I guess that's a tech or DIR term? The configuration I'm using and I think Mark was referring to is a necklace (like a "bungee" apparently) to hold the backup reg when your plan is to donate the backup reg, not your primary. That's how I was taught in OW. So the backup reg is secured in a way that it is easily released.

 

[Them]

I am religious about buddy checks, but I don't want anyone touching my gear. By the time I have it set up, I have it the way I want it, and the only time I want someone to touch it is if there is something out of order that I can't fix by myself.

I would agree that you don't blithely reconfigure another diver's gear, and of course you shouldn't do anything your buddy is actively uncomfortable with, but are we really talking about reconfiguring/fixing or was it touching?

On one of my buddy checks my equally noob buddy had a hose trapped by his BCD, which I found as much as anything by touch, moving a hose and seeing that it didn't move right. I didn't fix it for him but I touched his gear to find the problem. Was I wrong?

When I did my OW dives one of the DMs gave my tank valve a 1/4 turn (at which point it hit the end of travel) and 1/4 back while I was waiting for my chance to enter the water. Of course I didn't watch them do it (my head doesn't swivel that far) but I figured out what they were doing by sound/feel. Was she wrong?

I didn't get the impression that the OP would reconfigure her buddy's gear to an unfamiliar configuration. It actually sounds like they use a similar gear configuration and have received similar training so they would both know the preferences of the other (or at least they could).

It seems as though if you don't trust someone to even touch your gear, why would you trust her to come to your aid effectively? Or am I overthinking this?

 

[doctormike]

I don't call it a "bungee", I guess that's a tech or DIR term? The configuration I'm using and I think Mark was referring to is a necklace (like a "bungee" apparently) to hold the backup reg when your plan is to donate the backup reg, not your primary. That's how I was taught in OW. So the backup reg is secured in a way that it is easily released.

Right... they are both necklaces. And before I forget to mention it, thank you VERY much for posting this... it's incredibly helpful for new and experienced divers to think through situations like this and discuss ways of improving things...! I know that it's not easy to put yourself out there as a potential punching bag..

Bungee refers to the elastic cord used to make the necklace. I'm not sure why this deserves the label of being a tech or DIR thing, but I do realize that it is considered that. I'm not a technical diver either, but you might want to consider that a lot of the gear and techniques used by the technical diving community are (1) completely appropriate and applicable to shallow, recreational diving, and (2) have been tested in some very tough situations, so they might be worth adopting, even if you never go below 60 feet on a tropical reef.

The bungee necklace can certainly be adjusted to quickly release, but is usually intended to be used by the "rescuing" diver, who donates his or her primary. For this reason, many people who adopt this approach use a longer hose for their primary regulator. In the case that you described, a longer hose would have definitely been a plus, addressing concerns about his losing a gas supply due to buoyancy problems and the two of you moving apart in the water column.

Here is a bungee necklace:



The ones that are designed to quickly release (which may be the ones that you are using) are rubber or a similar material.



Do you use the second type? Remember, anything that can easily be released in an emergency can also be easily released inadvertently... If you are looking for advice, you might consider switching to the first type and donating the primary in an emergency. You don't necessarily need to switch to the long hose configuration, but you may also find this to be more secure in an emergency situation.

 

[CajunDiva]

Or am I overthinking this?

With the true intention of being as polite as possible...yes.

It's like expecting everyone in life to feel the same way about a topic...it's just impossible.

When you boil it all down, this is a sport that we all go to great pains to participate in. We read, take tests, practice...etc, etc, etc. Then we pass all the tests and are actually certified divers! Somewhere in performance of all those tasks along with the dives we perform afterwards, we become "comfortable" with OUR way of doing things. It's not that YOU can't do something perfectly well, it's just that I have got everything set up JUST the way I want it, and I don't want anybody messing with it. It's a comfort thing

When I am comfortable that everything is just the way I want it, I feel safe undertaking the dive and am a much better diver AND dive buddy. It's just a matter of perspective...

 

[Them]

... It's a comfort thing

When I am comfortable that everything is just the way I want it, I feel safe undertaking the dive and am a much better diver AND dive buddy. It's just a matter of perspective...

That makes sense. So BWRAF (or whatever you use) is, "show me you are good, " rather than, "I'll verify you are good."

When learning to fly I had just the opposite drilled into me (i.e. that checks should be tactile - don't just say the fuel pump is on, touch the switch and verify by feel) though honestly that may have just been a foible of the various instructors I used. Gotta learn what to bring forward and what to leave behind.

 

[CajunDiva]

I'm not saying that is absolutely the case with ALL people. I'm just saying that all people are different and will feel differently about their personal situation. If someone doesn't want their gear touched, that should be respected, because it's their feeling and it's valid to them.

Upon re-examining my previous answer, it occurs to me that my response (and the situation with the OP) is based on the perspective of having your spouse as your dive buddy. I ALWAYS dive with the SAME dive buddy. We are nearing 500 dives together and I think it's safe to say we have reached a definite comfort level not only with our own abilities, but with each other. Just as we can complete each other's sentences above water, we pretty much know what the other is thinking underwater. I don't need to "touch" his gear and he doesn't need to "touch" mine. But we do a buddy check and the last thing we check before initiating our dive is whether or not our air is on. Experience is a great teacher.

Although I have not had another dive buddy, we have recently been diving with our kids and grandkids, who got certified in order to enjoy some family diving. They are new divers and on a recent dive I sat back and observed as they performed their buddy check and gave them some loving guidance. Even then, I did not interfere with their preparation or handle their gear...but they did just fine on their own

IF I had a buddy I was not accustomed to diving with, and especially if they were inexperienced, my perspective would be very different and I would be prepared to do it "by the book" - after all, that's why we are taught about the buddy system.

 

[markmantei]

If properly configured, the reg will never pull out of the bungee. Of course, there are many ways of doing anything, but my backup second stage is for me, after I have donated my primary to an OOG diver. I have it in very tightly, so that it will always be right under my chin when I need it.

Unless you have the reg ziptied in, or use some other method for creating a hard attachement, any reg will pull out of the bungie with a sharp tug. Sure you don't want it falling out inadvertently, so properly configured it should be tight, but IMO should NOT be impossible to remove from the bungie. Many tech divers have break away straps on their regs specifically because in an emergency you need to just be able to access that reg regardless. This is more true for anyting clipped in, but also applies to the bugied reg.

---------- Post Merged at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 07:39 PM ----------

As a technical diver (doesn't apply to the OP) you always donate the reg in your mouth. Sidemount divers may be breathing either reg at any given point in time. If you are unable to remove your reg from your bungied necklace, that will create some real issues during an OOA or S-drill.

 

[doctormike]

Unless you have the reg ziptied in, or use some other method for creating a hard attachement, any reg will pull out of the bungie with a sharp tug.

Bet you a beer you can't pull my reg out of my bungee necklace without breaking the cord or the mouthpiece..!

If you tie the loop tight with the bungee stretched, and then fix the knots in the standard fashion (melt the ends with lighter and/or use crazy glue), it really won't slip out. Zip tie not absolutely necessary, although some people do run a zip tie around the cord below the knots for extra security. Now, whether or not this is a good idea seems to be somewhat controversial, with reasonable arguments on both sides. I don't have the experience to make a strong case for my approach, but overall I am happiest knowing that the backup second stage is going to be in easy reach when I need it (since I won't be donating this one).

Sure you don't want it falling out inadvertently, so properly configured it should be tight, but IMO should NOT be impossible to remove from the bungie. Many tech divers have break away straps on their regs specifically because in an emergency you need to just be able to access that reg regardless.

Right, that's why you want it right next to your mouth. I mean, I certainly COULD break the system, and in a real emergency I could cut the bungee with one of my cutting tools (or just take it over my head), but wouldn't you want it where you are most likely to need it? I guess there are entanglement scenarios that would make a breakaway system helpful (the regulator, not the bungee loop itself), but I would rather have the reg where I am most likely to be needing it. Sort of like the examples of people who were killed in car accidents due to seat belt strangulation, or were saved when they were thrown clear. Statistically, you are still more likely to be saved by your seat belt than killed, examples to the contrary notwithstanding.

As a technical diver (doesn't apply to the OP) you always donate the reg in your mouth. Sidemount divers may be breathing either reg at any given point in time. If you are unable to remove your reg from your bungied necklace, that will create some real issues during an OOA or S-drill.

You may be right, I'm not a technical diver, but I do dive doubles with a long hose and a bungeed necklace for my backup second stage. I don't know anything about sidemount, so if those divers need breakaway necklaces, then they should use them. I'm not sure why you would need to take the second regulator out of your necklace for the OOA drill you describe, if you are donating the primary and then breathing from the secondary.

I think that we may be confusing the need for a releasable backup second stage with the classic OW approach of donating your "octopus", and the need for a more fixed second stage if you are donating your primary. So as far as the OP is concerned, a breakaway, deployable octopus holding solution would be needed. But maybe this discussion will show her the advantages of a long hose on the donated primary, even for new divers. For example, in the OP's scenario, having a 7 (or 5) foot hose would have been helpful, as I mentioned above...

 

[markmantei]

Bet you a beer you can't pull my reg out of my bungee necklace without breaking the cord or the mouthpiece..!

If you tie the loop tight with the bungee stretched, and then fix the knots in the standard fashion (melt the ends with lighter and/or use crazy glue), it really won't slip out. Zip tie not absolutely necessary, although some people do run a zip tie around the cord below the knots for extra security. Now, whether or not this is a good idea seems to be somewhat controversial, with reasonable arguments on both sides. I don't have the experience to make a strong case for my approach, but overall I am happiest knowing that the backup second stage is going to be in easy reach when I need it (since I won't be donating this one).

Maybe someday I'll have a chance to take you up on that bet!

I am not sure how you have tied your knots, but I believe double fisherman's knots would be the standard way, at least that's how I did it. This allows you to pull the opening for the reg tight. I also have mine cinched very tight, so even if the reg hose was to snag (which would be difficult) the reg would not pull out unless you were scootering, it still comes out with a sharp tug if neccessary, and I cannot see, for the diving I'm doing, changing this setup.

Right, that's why you want it right next to your mouth. I mean, I certainly COULD break the system, and in a real emergency I could cut the bungee with one of my cutting tools (or just take it over my head), but wouldn't you want it where you are most likely to need it? I guess there are entanglement scenarios that would make a breakaway system helpful (the regulator, not the bungee loop itself), but I would rather have the reg where I am most likely to be needing it. Sort of like the examples of people who were killed in car accidents due to seat belt strangulation, or were saved when they were thrown clear. Statistically, you are still more likely to be saved by your seat belt than killed, examples to the contrary notwithstanding.

We are certainly in agreement that a bungied necklace is a very good if not preferable way of keeping your regulator, secured and easily accessible, no matter if you dive backmount or sidemount, recreational or tec.

You may be right, I'm not a technical diver, but I do dive doubles with a long hose and a bungeed necklace for my backup second stage. I don't know anything about sidemount, so if those divers need breakaway necklaces, then they should use them. I'm not sure why you would need to take the second regulator out of your necklace for the OOA drill you describe, if you are donating the primary and then breathing from the secondary.

In sidemount you do not have a primary and secondary regulator, both regs are "primary" as they are is only 1 2nd stage attached to each 1st stage for each tank. Why would you donate the regulator from the necklace? Because as a technical diver you are always donating the reg in your mouth (IMHO should be in recreational as well, although it can be taught both ways), and that may be the bungied short hose. You know that the reg is working and delivering gas, and that gas is safe to be breathing at your current depth. Also the ooa diver may be going for the most obvious source of working gas which is the reg in your mouth. Practicing this way (donate the reg in your mouth) also prepares you to have reg out of your mouth for any number of reasons including ooa situations but also maybe some moron just kicked the reg out of your mouth, or you snagged your hose and pulled the reg out, or any other circumstance that you can imagine. This IS different than backmount doubles (which I assume you are diving), where you are always breathing from your long hose and that is what gets donated, allowing you to go to your bungied backup. In sidemount, if you donate the short hose because that is what you are breathing, you would then switch the reciever to the long hose once both divers have gas and control of the situation.

I think that we may be confusing the need for a releasable backup second stage with the classic OW approach of donating your "octopus", and the need for a more fixed second stage if you are donating your primary. So as far as the OP is concerned, a breakaway, deployable octopus holding solution would be needed. But maybe this discussion will show her the advantages of a long hose on the donated primary, even for new divers. For example, in the OP's scenario, having a 7 (or 5) foot hose would have been helpful, as I mentioned above...

I am not confusing the OW releasable 2nd, but I think it more comes from your lack of familiarity with sidemount and potential issues that may arrise and how gear needs to be configured differently to deal with those issues. That said, I think the discussion is a good one, as SM becomes more common, you may one day find your self buddied with a SM diver and knowing what may differences you may be dealing with in an emergency can only be a good thing. A permanently attached bungied backup works for you in BM, and I'm not saying that it will kill you by any streach, but is not the solution for everyone. A releasable solution also will not kill you. I agree as I stated above that there are advantages to even recreational divers learning to donate the reg from their mouth, long hoses, I think need either training or a mentor to show you how not to create more issues mainly around entanglement, but even for recreational diving, in some circumstances can certainly have some advantages.

Have fun and dive safe