Overfill at Castaway Scuba

[fldiver1]

My bad then. But I have heard this numerous times actually. "Why dont I get a discount? I am a college student." Just kinda rubs me the wrong way I guess. Sorry to "go off" like that bro, I hope you understand though why I say that. What if you were standing in the shop(not getting a discount because you were a college student) and some other kid walks in and says "I am a girl scout so I get a discount on fills." You would be pissed then wouldnt you? Why should someone get a discount for being a girl/boy scout, baptist, doctor or whatever when everone else doesnt who works just as hard for thier money?
My point is this, use a shop for the service they provide to you and the deals they give you. Not too many shops are going to give you any kind of discount the first time you walk in. Some will, some wont. Usually if they do the first time its to get your business but after that, they wont give you much. If you are a good customer, most places will from time to time "hook you up".

Think about it like this. If you owned a business and I come in wanting air but you have never seen me before, would you discount the fill by half of what you normally charge?
What if I was a regular customer who spent at least $100 a month in your store? then you would probably give me a fill for free every once in a while wouldnt you? See my point?

 

[Fotoz4FX]

Many new tanks have a '+' sign stamped on them next to their pressure rating which indicates that they are okay to fill 10% above that rated pressure. 3900 is by far beyond the '+' indicator (3000 + 10% = 3300, not 3900) and had I been standing there, hot or not, I'd have something to say about (1): the accuracy of the gauge, and; (2): the qualifications of the person at the fill station.

I have seen overfilled tanks behave quite strangely when immersed in cool water (vibrating, rattling scary behavior) that would make me think twice about ever using it again without first having it retested (hydro) after some jockey at a fill station over pressurized it.

Hydro tests are done in water and yes, they are done at 5/3rds the rating of the tank but... they are done in a water container which holds pressure (of the water... much denser than air at sea level such as at a fill station) against the outer walls of the tank. There are reasons for doing that besides the obvious explosion containment that water would provide to a limited degree should the tank fail the hydro. In modern day fill stations the tanks aren't even immersed... I still don't quite fathom the logic of filling on a deck without some kind of containment.

You are well within your rights to question this unsafe overfill practice in spite of the suggestion that the fill station in question cannot exceed 3600 psi of fill pressure. If the gauges are not in spec... who's to say the compressor is? It may be rated at 3600 but I can assure you... they can go beyond the rating in actual operation too. Question the fill station on how recent the air quality inspection has been performed... the changing of the filters... request to see the log - it's your right... it's your life... it is the air you will be breathing. If they are offended by that, go elsewhere and make issue of it with your local agencies. Diving is self-regulated (thank god or we'd not be able to afford to dive) but not challenging does not make the industry safer. Keep your dive center in line in spite of themselves.

I've seen gauges blow when compressors run away in my industrial maintenance experience... they had ratings too but the pistons weren't paying attention to those limits. Equipment can and does exceed manufacturer specifications at times... it's not a bad thing but it is something you want to monitor.

Never assume... you know what it does. If a gauge is on the compressor, it's because the designer didn't make assumptions... it's a gauge to monitor output and if it's not calibrated... I'd consider filling elsewhere...

... or diving with someone else.

Don't gamble with your life no matter what someone else might say to the contrary. Maybe it does only go to 3600 psi fill capacity but ask them to prove it with recent reports.

It's not being extreme... it's being what you were taught to be as a self-reliant diving professional... safe. That's why we have redundant systems in diving... air quality is the only factor we don't replicate so don't take chances with it. If the station is questionable... question the station.

MAN DID I JUST RUN AWAY ON THIS ONE... SORRY IF I STEPPED ON ANY TOES BUT IT JUST BLEW ME OUT OF THE WATER THAT PEOPLE COULD BE SO UNCONCERNED ABOUT SOMETHING AS DANGEROUS AND CARELESS AS THIS COULD HAVE BEEN.

 

[Fotoz4FX]

I only squabble because other shops give me air cheaper, and products in their store are cheaper, and they are always willing to teach me or explain anything to me while I'm getting tanks filled.

I only mind the cost because I'm paying $10 because I used 30 cubic feet of air while a person can bring in an empty 80 and pay $5 for 75 cubic feet of air. That pains me. Solution: skip buying air. So the shop could have easily gotten $5 from me but instead they get nothing for the time being. And later they'll get $10 from me. They could have gotten $15 but because they have per-fill pricing, they only get $10. They lost $5 in revenue.

There is your solution... if you want to pay what CEE charges rather than what Castaway charges, fill your tanks at CEE and stop whining. It seems your money is going to CEE rather than Castaway anyway so why should Castaway give you a break on partial fills? As one who has done the fill station I see it this way: Your tank comes in... it's down by 1000psi - I still have to check the hydro date, last inspection, hook it up and fill it... it's called a fill and each fill whether partial or not is a fill and you are paying for my time and the use of my equipment. Don't think I should give you a break in cost just because YOU didn't spend as much time in your dive as you could have to use more of your air before coming to me for a fill. That's your problem, not mine.
If you want more gas for your dollar... bring it in with less. The charge is the same.

The alternative?... buy your own compressor then try to maintain it... you'll find your costs are much greater per fill than it is to bring it to a certified fill station.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

My bad then. But I have heard this numerous times actually. "Why dont I get a discount? I am a college student." Just kinda rubs me the wrong way I guess.

No worries, we are pretty much on the same "level". I don't want a discount. I want per cubic foot pricing, or at the very least, pricing done by halves of a tank or something. It's not nearly as big an issue for recreational divers who can breathe a tank down to 500 psi. As intro to cave diver, which I will be in a few months (about a montha fter classes end), I am restricted to using 1/6 of my supply on penetration. The next 1/6th should be used on exit. The dive will be non-deco, so worst case scenario, my buddy needs some of my gas and I use 3/6 instead of 2/6.

Many new tanks have a '+' sign stamped on them next to their pressure rating which indicates that they are okay to fill 10% above that rated pressure.

Only LP steels, I believe, have this rating system, correct? My aluminum 100s are designed to operate at 3300 psi. HP steels are designed to run at 3500, modern "hp" steels are designed for 3442, LP are 2460 with the +. Oh, and aluminum normal pressure are 3000. I've never seen any tank with a + rating other than LP steels.

There is your solution... if you want to pay what CEE charges rather than what Castaway charges, fill your tanks at CEE and stop whining. It seems your money is going to CEE rather than Castaway anyway so why should Castaway give you a break on partial fills? As one who has done the fill station I see it this way: Your tank comes in... it's down by 1000psi - I still have to check the hydro date, last inspection, hook it up and fill it... it's called a fill and each fill whether partial or not is a fill and you are paying for my time and the use of my equipment. Don't think I should give you a break in cost just because YOU didn't spend as much time in your dive as you could have to use more of your air before coming to me for a fill. That's your problem, not mine.
If you want more gas for your dollar... bring it in with less. The charge is the same.

The alternative?... buy your own compressor then try to maintain it... you'll find your costs are much greater per fill than it is to bring it to a certified fill station.

I do fill at CEE when I can. I go out of my way to get my gas there, within reason. Castaway is much closer to me, closer by about 2.5 hours when I'm at college. My money will go to Castaway if I'm in there more. Why am I in CEE? air. What do I end up doing? Chatting. What does the operator of the shop mention? That he can get me a good deal on a BP/W. What am I in there next week doing? Buying a BP/W. Same with the tanks, I saw those while getting air. Same with the manifold and bands, I was there getting air. The more I'm in a shop getting air, the more loyal to that shop I will become and the more stuff I will end up buying. Right now, I need some brass double enders and boltsnaps. Where will I buy them? Wherever I end up getting air next. Where will I get air next? Depends on the price of air.

I have no problem filling my own tanks. Last time I was at Castaway, I ended up doing half the work anyways.

As far as "not using as much gas as you could have" please note that I am hoping to soon be an intro to cave diver, where I will be restricted to using 1/6 of my gas for penetration, for a total of less than half, probably only 1/3 of my gas per dive. I will be using as much gas as I can, believe you me, because I love diving, but I will only be allowed to use so much gas.

As I already said, if they would charge me per cubic foot, then I'd be more likely to stop by to have it topped off after short recreational dives. This last weekend, I did a 30 minute dive and only burned 800 psi or so, I forget my ending pressure exactly. I won't get it topped off before the next dive, atleast not here, if I'm in Gainesville, then I'll stop at CEE and get it topped off with some wonderful 32%. By getting it topped off, I will end up giving them more ofmy money, in addition to the fact that I will end up spending more money while in the shop than if I weren't--like those boltstaps I want to pick up. And maybe a new mouthpiece. What about a snorkel holder? Some of that paint to ID my gear with, that'd be nice. I need a new logbook. One of those Dive Rite mats to put down to change on, I want one of those as well. And where will I get that stuff? Wherever I buy air.

 

[fldiver1]

But, if you are driving 2 and a half hours to buy air you DEFINITELY arent saving money. If you are going to be close that that shop anyway, might as well save a few bux then. Like I was saying though, if you do biz at one shop, they throw ya some deals now and then. The other shop you mention, you obviously do some business there and that is why they give you deals. You are a regular customer there. If I walk into Castaway, they all know me by name and we stand around and BS for a bit. I buy what I need and sometimes get some SUPER deals.

But this is what we are saying, you do biz at CEE. They charge you less for your air you are buying. While some shops have a flat rate per fill, if you are a customer of thiers they may not even charge you for a fill sometimes. Actually I buy ALOT of my equipment from Divers Direct. BUT I never have had a fill from them. EVER! But when they run a sale on a particular item alot of times NO other shop can beat the price so I buy it from them. I dont buy everything from Castaway or any other shop for that matter. But I do buy alot from them and I buy alot of air from them(and they give me some too). Sure I pay a little more for some stuff from them but I really like to walk into a place "where everybody knows your name, and they're always glad you came". You will spend your money where you feel comfortable, thats just the way it is. Doesnt matter on the price really. If I hated every shop in town and the only guy I could get along with was at DimWit's SCUBA SHOP and they charged 24bux for an air fill, that is where I would spend my money. Why, because I like the guy(or gal) and they treat me like a valuable friend/customer.

You buy from CEE because they treat you a certain way. Just like you said, the owner of the shop told you of a good deal. Why did he do that? Because you spend money there and you keep coming back.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

It just hurts my wallet to know that a top off in High springs could be less than half of a top off in Orlando. It means that on my budget, I simply cannot afford to dive as often. What's more is, the top off is nitrox, not just air. Air there is a flat rate, nitrox is by the cubic foot. So not only will I be paying less than half of a fill, but I'm getting more expensive air.

Of course I don't drive up to Gainesville just for air, but if I know it'll be a week or two before I dive and I'm heading up that way, I'll hold off and get air there rather than going to Castaway.


And Rich will cut just about anyone a good deal. Sure, he probably cuts me a great deal because I support his shop, but if you walked in with a price from another shop I have a strong feeling he'd work hard to matchor beat it. Afte rall, he was giving me good deals even back when I didn't shop there as much.


For what it's worth, I just dropped off a tank to be hydroed at Castaway. And I will continue to shop there. Just not if I can get my air in High Springs, because it's cheaper more expensive gas there in High springs. I love my gas like I love my women: cheap but expensive at the same time. A gal with style who isn't high maintennance.

 

[fldiver1]

I hear ya bro. But I am sure that in High Springs the cost of operating a business is MUCH less than here in Orlando. Just the rent on the building alone is probably half or so. that is a big part of why a shop sets a certain price.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

Have I ever met you, FLdiver? I swear I met someone with a similar user name at the last Megadive.

I'm sure the overhead is somewhat lower, but the shop isn't inside of city limits, are they?

I know gasoline is cheaper in this county than in the Gainesville county's (CEE is technically in...Gilchrest?), even though operating costs in Orlando are probably higher.

And to their benefit, if I buy a fill card, my cost per fill drops somewhat to about $3 a fill. As soon as I save up enough money, I'll buy one I'm a college student with $20 to spend each week. Getting in to a state park is $10, air is $10, so I have no money for lunch or for those double enders I need. And I'm spending $35 on a hydro/vip/fill, which would be two weeks spending budget except I paid for most of that with tips from winter break. If I'm very careful with my money and don't dive, then I have some money in my wallet week to week. If I ever manage to get a significant other I'm sure I'll have to give up diving or eating....

 

[fldiver1]

Bro, if you get a significant other you'll be giving up alot more than that!!! LOL I lost my Corvette, 4 dirtbikes, a couple of other streetbikes, my bass boat and some more stuff to have a wife and kids. Now I drive an SUV(well used I might add) and have 1 mtorcycle and a boat that fits the whole family. Everything else belongs to her and the kids!! HAHA
No, we have never met. Never been to any of the MegaDives or other SB functions.

 

[PhilEllis]

So everyone is actually okay with an aluminum tank being overfilled, even to 3600?!? Aluminum tanks are not meant to be filled that high. Sure they can take it.

I have said this before, and I am ready for the flames...............

....it is equally as safe (or unsafe, depending on your viewpoint) to overfill an aluminum cylinders as it is to overfill a cylinder made of any other material under the DOT standards. Regardless of the material, they are all subjected to EXACTLY the same qualification tests. ALL OF THEM (even steel cylinders) must fail in a leak-before-burst mode at some time after 10,000 cycles to be approved. If a cylinder never fails during the testing, the test is a failure.

Many will CLAIM that there is some sort of evidence that aluminum is less safe than steel for overfilling, but few can produce anything other than anecdotal evidence. Overfilling cylinders, while done fairly frequently, is entering into completely unknown (from an engineering perspective) territory. I don't know of ANY scuba cylinder company that has completed and published any engineering tests on the impact of overfilling scuba cylinders.

Advertising Note: OMS once advertised that their cylinders could withstand 10,000 cycles filled to a pressure of 4000 psi. They were correct, as would be ANY other cylinder company that made that same claim.....even the Luxfer aluminum cylinders. Many claim (not me) that OMS was trying to leave the impression that their cylinder were safe for overfilling.

Phil Ellis
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