Please help - need advice on buying gear!

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wedivebc:
Believe it or not I actually think this is a wise approach. Maybe that's why I no longer own a dive store. :wink:

Taking the analogy one step further:

Imagine if instead of getting your driver's license from the State, you instead got it at your local new car dealership. You walked in one day and said, "I want to learn to drive." Of course, they'd whisk you through Driver's Ed., slap a license on you, and then walk you right over to the newest, bestest, hottest, latest, sexiest $40,000 SUV, put you in it, and tell you, "That's YOU. You need this!" If you asked a question about a competitor's vehicle ('cause you were thinking that you'd look good in a convertible before you even walked into the dealership), they'd poo-poo it and tell you all the reasons why you need a $40,000 SUV - THEIR $40,000 SUV. :D

Thankfully, it's the STATE that issues driver's licenses, and so the new driver actually has the opportunity to learn something about being on the road, safety, driving for others, and of course - choosing a vehicle - before stepping foot into the dealership, which is undoubtedly heck-bent on selling their product to you - at their greatest profit.

Unfortunately, we don't have that luxury in the scuba industry. Dive shops are motivated to get you through your classes as quickly as possible, and the initial gear sale is by far and away where the largest profit is made. The shop's probably worked hard to build a relationship with you and convince you to trust their judgement so that they can sell you their gear - which, of course, is the "best."

...That's not to say that what they're telling you isn't true... Perhaps your dive shop is an ethical one - perhaps they really are steering you in the right direction. Perhaps they really are doing you a service and trying to help you to the best of their ability. And maybe their recommendations are dead-on. It's impossible for one of us to tell you if that's happening or if they're simply trying to maximize their profit by moving as many people as possible through their system, and sell them as much gear as possible. Even the most ethical of business owners, regardless of the industry, will agree that there is a "happy medium" between serving the customer and selling what you offer. Ideally, the activities are one and the same - but when they're not, they're forced to choose to be completely honest with the customer ("You don't need to buy any gear until next year.") or choose to eat/clothe their kids/make their mortgage payment/keep the dive shop open another day. The industry is in a sad state of affairs when it forces it's people to make choices like this.

...Which is why I congratulate you, wedivebc... Congratulations for refusing to wear the car salesman plaid jacket, toupee, and fake smile. It's might be beneficial to you that you "don't have a dive store any more."

I'll bet you like diving a whole lot more now... :D
 
I guess I'm the oddball. I did two months of research (Books, Magazines, scubaboard opinions, etc) I then decided on what I wanted and bought. The problem with the rent everything until you find one you like is that most dive shops won't rent you a $400 titatium reg. (not suggesting you buy one). Most dive shops rent the same stuff.

I dive about the same as you except I plan to do Rescue. My rig is as follows:

Zeagle Brigade BC (Scubatoys.com special, Ranger Harness with the smaller Escape bladder)
Mares V16 Proton Metal (capable of cold water)
Proton Octo
Aeris Atmos AI Computer

I absolutely love this setup and it didn't break the bank. I bought from Scubatoys.com. SOme people will criticize for this but I saved a fortune ($200 on reg alone) and YES I GOT FULL MANUFACTURER'S WARRANTIES.
 
SeaJay,

I appreciate your advice. I understand the wisdom in your well-made points. I'll certainly call your friend about gear for Ginnie Springs!

Here's the counter to your analogy... My parents' car is crap. And my friends all have crap cars. The only cars you can rent for reasonable rates are crap too (relatively speaking). To rent a Porsche is $500/day... Honestly, I've never driven a Porsche, but I've love the looks and the engineering is unrivaled. I already know even after just a few drives that I LOVE driving, and that I LOVE driving fast! When I have $80,000 to BLOW on a car, will I lay it down on a Porsche GT before test driving it? Of course -- most people do, because you have to order the really expensive ones... I'm not buying the first one at the dealer, but if I know I like Porsches from seeing them, and reading about them, and researching them, and talking to other Porsche owners and also knowing generally that I appreciate top quality, then why should I drive around a Neon, a Grand Am or a PT Cruiser just to find out what I don't like about those cars?

My experience is obviously limited, but the rental gear I've had to date has been mostly crap. For example, my dive in USVI would have been INFINITELY more enjoyable had I had a better mouthpiece that didn't POUR seawater into my mouth... If I pay thousands of dollars for a nice trip to the Caymans, I don't want the diving to be ruined by inferior equipment... Have I just had bad luck thus far with rentals? Are there alot of shops out there that rent the GOOD STUFF? Are there such shops overseas? I admit - I like nice things (including cars)... If I buy something high-end and later decide I like something better, then I can always sell/trade it... I'll lose a little money, but renting is lost money automatically.

Here's another analogy for you (one that's entirely true in my case) -- I just looked at your profile and see that your into motorcycles. I don't know what kind you have, so please don't be offended, nor should anyone else be. I have a 2000 HD Fatboy. Prior to purchasing it, I'd never ridden or owned a motorcycle other than in the MSF course. I've always loved Harleys! I was never drawn to street bikes, nor to the metric cruisers. I suppose if that was all I could have afforded, I MIGHT have done it, but I wouldn't have been happy with anything short of a Harley. In fact, BAR NONE, every metric cruiser owner I've ever met while riding my bike feels compelled to tell me why they're not riding a Harley... I've loved the Fatboy ever since Terminator 2, and dreamed of owning one for many years. When I got the chance, I bought one, having never ridden anything but the Suzuki GZ250 from the course. Was I happy with the Fatboy? IMMENSELY!! I'll never forget the day I picked it up, and rode it for the first time as a pulled out of the dealership - one of the greatest thrills of my life, outranked only by my wedding day, and the day my son was born. I've had more joy from that bike than any other worldly possession I've ever had... I've enjoyed it for 4 years. NOW, I'm ready to sell it (any takers? I'll make you a great deal!) and build a ground up custom... Now, I know EXACTLY what I want, and only a full custom will get it for me (250 rear tire, single-side swing arm, right-side drive Baker 6-speed, Climax Cycle controls, etc - down to the very last chrome bolt). So I'm selling the Harley to upgrade to what will be the PERFECT bike. But the Harley was the perfect bike for me for quite a while. I'll lose a little money on the sale of the bike, but it's certainly held its value better than a metric cruiser would have. And as I said, I would not have had near the joy out of owning and riding a Honda Aero (for example)... Again, I'm not trying to offend anyone here.

I guess my point is this: a few years from now, I'll be able to afford the Paul Yaffe show-stopping custom motorcycle equivalent in dive gear. And then, I'll know EXACTLY what I want down to the last miniscule detail. In the interim, I'd much rather enjoy my own VERY nice black and ALL Chrome Fatboy equivalent dive gear, than ride a rented Kawasaki Vulcan (which btw, I'm sure isn't crap, but it's not a Fatboy).

Regards,
Vaughn
 
Vaugh,

It appears you are a bit frustrated with the answers you've been getting to your post. It is understandable because you feel you asked a pretty simple question. Unfortunately, it is not that simple.

To use one of the analogies being tossed around, the question you asked is, "I just got my drivers license, what kind of car should I get and why?"

There are just to many choices of dive gear out there and to many people using it all. Everyone has their own oppinion and why they like their gear.

For me, I like diving a Backplane/Wing type of BC. My back plate and harness are made by Dive Rite and the wing is made by Oxycheq, it is the Signature 45 single wing for a single tank. I dive a Zeagle DSV reg because I dive in cold water. In warm water the Zeagle Envoy would be awesome.

Brian
 
Quarrior:
Vaugh,

It appears you are a bit frustrated with the answers you've been getting to your post. It is understandable because you feel you asked a pretty simple question. Unfortunately, it is not that simple.

To use one of the analogies being tossed around, the question you asked is, "I just got my drivers license, what kind of car should I get and why?"

There are just to many choices of dive gear out there and to many people using it all. Everyone has their own oppinion and why they like their gear.

For me, I like diving a Backplane/Wing type of BC. My back plate and harness are made by Dive Rite and the wing is made by Oxycheq, it is the Signature 45 single wing for a single tank. I dive a Zeagle DSV reg because I dive in cold water. In warm water the Zeagle Envoy would be awesome.

Brian

Brian,

Actually, I'm not frustrated at all. I apologize if it sounded that way. I appreciate all the input! I argue for a living, so for me, the debate is fun. I honestly am not trying to offend anyone, because we all have our own opinions, and just because yours might be different than mine, doesn't mean you're wrong... (necessarily...) Unless we're arguing about the law... :D

To use your analogy, I probably could have been more specific, but I deliberately (after reading other posts and learning from people's mistakes) did not just say, "I'm new to diving - what should I buy?" I tried (as best I could) to explain what my goals and budget were. If someone said to me, I love driving, I want to buy a car that goes fast, looks hot, money is truly no object, and I'd like to able maybe even enter into races, I'd say "Spend a million dollars on the Maclaren F1." (For a time, the purchase price included a spot in a Euro grand prix race - don't know if it still does.) Would he prefer a Lamborghini? Maybe, but his race options would be more limited... (And he'd be crazy to prefer any Lambo over the F1 if money TRULY were no object!) But my advice would not be, "Buy a Mazda Miata," though they're fine cars, I'm sure, and were at one time (maybe still are) fairly popular in SCCA events.

I'm diving in the morning with a rented BP/W (didn't recognize the brand). So that will obviously answer some questions about that over traditional BC's. Honestly, I've read alot of the posts here about both, and tend to agree with the BP/W crowd on the downsides of the traditional design, even with relatively limited exposure to the traditional design... That, coupled with my desire to eventually get into SOME tech stuff, is steering me towards the BP/W, although the Zeagle Hybrid sounds interesting... Does anyone make a BP/W with integrated weights?

:cheers:,
Vaughn
 
Vaugh,

Dive Rite has weight pockets that are ditchable which just slide on the waist strap of the harness. I have them. They work great and since I only carry 2 pounds of weight now, I use one for holding my lift bag. hehehe The 2 pounds is in my left pocket and is offset by my cannister light on my right hip. There is a forum called Hogarthian. I suggest you check it out if you haven't.

As for my reg suggestion, I chose that particular reg because of all the reviews I read on it and did a lot research before buying it. I have used my reg standing on my head at 120ft in 42 degree water and did not get a mouth full of water like you will with some regs.
 
Quarrior:
Vaugh,

Dive Rite has weight pockets that are ditchable which just slide on the waist strap of the harness. I have them. They work great and since I only carry 2 pounds of weight now, I use one for holding my lift bag. hehehe The 2 pounds is in my left pocket and is offset by my cannister light on my right hip. There is a forum called Hogarthian. I suggest you check it out if you haven't.

As for my reg suggestion, I chose that particular reg because of all the reviews I read on it and did a lot research before buying it. I have used my reg standing on my head at 120ft in 42 degree water and did not get a mouth full of water like you will with some regs.

WOW! That's some cold water! More power to ya!! Thanks for the info on the pockets. Looks like they would work on any system with 2" straps...

Checking out the forum now. I can't BELIEVE the amount of info at this place! AWESOME!

Vaughn (with an "n") :D
 
Funny - we seem to have a lot of common passions. I think we're on the same page with the analogies.

SeaLawyer:
I'll certainly call your friend about gear for Ginnie Springs!

Definitely do that. An interesting point about Extreme Exposure:

Extreme Exposure, or "EE" as it's commonly called, is owned by the owner of Halcyon gear - Jarrod Jablonski. Jarrod's roots and many of his affiliates' roots go back into custom motorcycle parts for Harleys and similars - like Iron Horses and stuff. The bottom line is that a lot of the stuff he makes at Halcyon looks and feels very much like "custom bike" stuff. More function than form, it's designed to be performance-driven with durability and simplicity as it's watchwords. In fact, many have criticized Halcyon - and ultimately EE - for having too much "homemade-looking" gear. I suspect that it will appeal to you if you're a Fatboy/custom rider. Like a Harley, though, it finds it's strengths in tradition and "what works" rather than technology and "latest and greatest." It makes for a pure, simple kind of diving that feels more Harley than Suzuki, if you get my drift.

Here's the counter to your analogy... My parents' car is crap. And my friends all have crap cars. The only cars you can rent for reasonable rates are crap too (relatively speaking).

I understand - and I know how you feel - and you're right... There's going to be little that can compare to the way a BP/wing feels when you're "dialed in."

I see your justification - and you're right about it... So I can't say that I blame you a bit. I still say that the best is to rent 'til you can rent no more, but none of us took that route either. Lol... We all did the same thing - immediately go out and blow a bunch of money on gear that looks great at first.

...my dive in USVI would have been INFINITELY more enjoyable had I had a better mouthpiece that didn't POUR seawater into my mouth...

Yes, there is that about rental gear... While it's nice not to have to worry about maintaining it (or breaking it), the flip side is that you don't know where it's been or what sort of state of (dis)repair it's in. At least with your gear, you'll know that you're due for a $150 scheduled maintenance.

If I pay thousands of dollars for a nice trip to the Caymans, I don't want the diving to be ruined by inferior equipment... Have I just had bad luck thus far with rentals? Are there alot of shops out there that rent the GOOD STUFF?

"A lot?" No... But there are a few. EE's one of them, and probably the closest to you. They won't steer you wrong, and Douglas is the best there is.

Here's another analogy for you (one that's entirely true in my case) -- I just looked at your profile and see that your into motorcycles. I don't know what kind you have, so please don't be offended, nor should anyone else be.

I rode a piped, chipped, stroked, ported, turboed Honda CBR1100XX around in the deserts of Arizona/Nevada/California/New Mexico for a few years. I love the big GT bike - like a grown-up version of a sportbike. I am a speed junkie and loved to get on and find the twisties in the mountains and open 'er up in the deserts. She had a top speed of 207 mph, and she was often there. I love to ride long (my longest was 1200 miles in one weekend) and fast - and hunt across the deserts for the twisty high country.

...Not that I was passionate about it, mind you. Lol... 110,000 miles in three years.

I have a 2000 HD Fatboy.

Ugh! (Just kidding...)

South Carolina (where I am now) isn't condusive to my XX... So I sold it. I'm considering a Hardley - uh, sorry - "Harley" now. :D

The certainly are pretty bikes - and the Fatboy is my favorite, too.

Prior to purchasing it, I'd never ridden or owned a motorcycle other than in the MSF course.

Hey! Another MSF taker! I think you and I are the only ones, bud. Lol...

In fact, BAR NONE, every metric cruiser owner I've ever met while riding my bike feels compelled to tell me why they're not riding a Harley...

Well, they're confused why you'd spend $30k and wait two years for a noisy, oil-dripping pig when "the good stuff" is available to you immediately at less than half the price.

Okay, okay... I'll stop bustin' on you now. Lol... I'm just playin'. :D

I like Harleys - they look good in my rearview mirror.

(Sorry - I'll quit. I'm just teasin')

I've loved the Fatboy ever since Terminator 2, and dreamed of owning one for many years.

Me too, but don't tell my squid buddies. :D

When I got the chance, I bought one, having never ridden anything but the Suzuki GZ250 from the course. Was I happy with the Fatboy? IMMENSELY!! I'll never forget the day I picked it up, and rode it for the first time as a pulled out of the dealership - one of the greatest thrills of my life, outranked only by my wedding day, and the day my son was born.

I know how you felt. :D

But the Harley was the perfect bike for me for quite a while. I'll lose a little money on the sale of the bike, but it's certainly held its value better than a metric cruiser would have. And as I said, I would not have had near the joy out of owning and riding a Honda Aero (for example)... Again, I'm not trying to offend anyone here.

Yeah - I rode the Aero, too... Cool looking bike... I wasn't a fan, though, probably for the same reasons.

I guess my point is this: a few years from now, I'll be able to afford the Paul Yaffe show-stopping custom motorcycle equivalent in dive gear. And then, I'll know EXACTLY what I want down to the last miniscule detail. In the interim, I'd much rather enjoy my own VERY nice black and ALL Chrome Fatboy equivalent dive gear, than ride a rented Kawasaki Vulcan.

Gotcha.

Okay - take notes.

Halcyon stainless steel backplate with 30 pound Eclipse wings if you're diving a wetsuit. Get Doug to set it up and custom fit it to you (fit is VITALLY important). Any good wetsuit will do - the Scubapro Steamers that Doug has in his shop are an excellent choice, assuming that your body fits in them well. These are the "Fatboys" of the diving world. Later, you can really get into customizing your rig (like you want to do now), but Doug's custom fit on a Halcyon rig will set you up nicely. Take his advice on the ditchable weights - you'll see when you get there.

DIR Fundamentals is a course that's like the "Emergency Evasive Maneuver" courses listed in the back of the Robb Report. Take it - it's expensive, but the skills - which are designed for special situations - can be used even in everyday driving and will enhance your ability to control your car (dive). Really, really good stuff. By comparison, the MSF course is Advanced Open water - not required, but unless you take it, your growth in the sport is really stunted. Open Water is like the Driver's Ed course you had in high school - more about taking it "because it's required" than "because it taught you something big," but hey, at least it got you behind the wheel (diving).

Regs: Apeks probably has the best reputation in the world with those divers who push themselves to an extreme. They're rock solid, well made, standard, and are excellent performers. Mares is like Moto Guzzi - cool because it's different, but most people look at it and say, "What the heck is that?" Lol... Scubapro makes some great stuff too - and are also standardized. Apeks = Honda and Scubapro = Yamaha - both well known for reliability, with possibly a nudge (IMHO) to the Apeks. Apeks tends to do better in salty, muddy, cold water than Scubapro generally does.

Submersible pressure gauge: Halcyon. Very nice. Worth the extra couple of bucks. See Doug.

Mask: Nice choice already. Frameless = simplicity and low volume, Scubapro = good quality.

Computer: Suunto Vyper - trust me on this, you'll thank me. Don't do the Stinger or the Mosquito - their batteries don't last long and need to be replaced by the manufacturer. The Vyper's batteries you can replace yourself when they go bad in a couple of years. Take the big, unecessary plastic piece and the face guard off - they're worthless and only add bulk/something else to have to look through. With a recessed face, it's hard to scratch the "real" face of the Vyper anyway.

Get a hood that fits and is comfortable - you'll be really happy you did when the water temperature falls into the 60's. Avoid thick suits if you can. In Jacksonville, 3 mil suits pretty much allow you to dive year 'round. Don the hood if you get chilly. Avoid the 5 or 7 mil if you can dive warm in a 3 mil. Wetsuits are buoyant, and get to be a pain when they get thick. I'm a fan of one-piece suits for the same reason that I like my masks frameless. Simplicity = good, and no, you'll never really dive the "bottoms only" of your two-piece wetsuit because it "scoops" water when you swim forward.

Tanks: Don't just yet. Renting them costs $10, filling them costs $5 or $8. Not worth it. A pain to carry. Only get them after you're Nitrox certified. You'll see why when you get there. Oh yeah - Nitrox = good. Very, very good.

Good luck on only diving 25-30 times a year. With the right rig and the right skill set (Doug) - not to mention the right area (you're already in it) - you'll be doing 4 dives a weekend - every other weekend. That's three or four times your estimate.

After 100 dives, I'll bet you love this more than motorcycling. Imagine riding your bike 25-30 times a year... NOT!
 
Assuming you like things smaller and compact in diving i would go for the Aqua Lung Micra regulator. Out of about 6 different regs I recently purchased this reg. It has adjustable airflow is good for all moderate (not extreme) temperatures. Is small and compact and is a fabulous reg. for a bcd many go for the back plate and wings. I owuld look into it (for girls its not THAT comfortable). computer= aeries atmos 1 or 2 or aeries atmos elite. very well made cool computers. suit= some type of henderson, id go for the titanium stretch, custom made.
 

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