Please help - need advice on buying gear!

[SeaJay]

I am not cave or wreck certified, so I can't even hazard a guess as to what equipement you will need. I imagine you'll have to get special equipment for that.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could use the same equipment (or at least the same equipment configuration) for every dive? Think about how good you'd get at "mastering" it.

 

[Saipanman]

Wouldn't it be nice if you could use the same equipment (or at least the same equipment configuration) for every dive? Think about how good you'd get at "mastering" it.

Valid point. Obviously consistency has its merits. On the other hand, if what you're doing is basically warm water non-penetration dives, why bring all the extra gear all the time?

 

[SeaJay]

Agreed. The way I was taught, you shouldn't have any "extra" gear in the first place.

What kind of "extra" gear do you think is required to dive caves and wrecks?

 

[Saipanman]

What kind of "extra" gear do you think is required to dive caves and wrecks?

My impression of cave and wreck divers (and this is only from reading and other second hand info, as I exclusively dive in clear tropical water) is that they basically have two or more of everything because they're usually solo diving.

I would consider the penetration reels extra, obviously, and totally unnecessary for the diving I do. The hi-tech torches are overkill when, in warm tropical water much less is needed. The stage bottles would seem to be overkill.

I understand that many penetration divers have "strange" (not using that perjoratively) configurations that are also unnecessary/overkill when doing open water dives. Crotchstraps, regs secured around the neck. Spare masks. All great ideas in one situation and, in my opinion, not needed in others.

 

[SeaJay]

My impression of cave and wreck divers (and this is only from reading and other second hand info, as I exclusively dive in clear tropical water) is that they basically have two or more of everything because they're usually solo diving.

There are people who subscribe to the solo diver theology... But it's not one that is popular or common. Most cavers that I know do not dive solo under any circumstances.

I would consider the penetration reels extra, obviously, and totally unnecessary for the diving I do. The hi-tech torches are overkill when, in warm tropical water much less is needed. The stage bottles would seem to be overkill.

Agreed.

In fact, in many warm, clear water dives other things might be overkill, too... Double tank systems, drysuits, and the like...

I understand that many penetration divers have "strange" (not using that perjoratively) configurations that are also unnecessary/overkill when doing open water dives. Crotchstraps, regs secured around the neck. Spare masks. All great ideas in one situation and, in my opinion, not needed in others.

Well, now we're getting into an area of subjectivity. Is it "needed" that you have fuel injection and disc brakes on your car? Radial tires? Electronic throttle controls? ABS brakes? High performance motors? These are all things that were borne of the racetrack, yet have made even the most casual of driving more enjoyable, safer, and more convienient.

Like these things are relative to driving, things like crotchstraps, long hose configurations, necklaced backups and more powerful lights can do amazing things to enhance the safety and enjoyability of any dive. Better yet, when/if you ever do want to explore the interior of that wreck (which sits at "recreational" depths), the "conversion" is easy to do - simply add a stage bottle or a second tank and you're all set to go - no need for "all new gear" or the "unlearning" of old habits. I can't begin to tell you how enjoyable it is to fly through a wreck at 80' without disturbing a thing, simply there to observe.

...And there are equipment configurations that allow for all of the above. Sure, a jacket BC and a short hose might be adequate, but why do that to yourself and face a limitation of not being able to go inside when a simple system that works well in all conditions can be had for (arguably) cheaper anyway?

 

[Saipanman]

Better yet, when/if you ever do want to explore the interior of that wreck (which sits at "recreational" depths), the "conversion" is easy to do - simply add a stage bottle or a second tank and you're all set to go - no need for "all new gear" or the "unlearning" of old habits. QUOTE]

I guess that's where we might respectfully disagree (although perhaps this is just semantics. You are obviously quite knowledgable and experienced). Were I to make the conversion to penetrating wrecks, I would certainly want to take a class, find out about the new gear, try some out, then buy the gear that works best (and looks the coolest) for me.

I think it's way too easy and tempting for an inexperience person to attempt to "make the conversion" too quickly just because he figures he already has the right gear for it.

The original poster is new to diving and has the cash to spend. While you make great points, I still think I would advise him to get top-o-the-line equipment tailored for the diving he is most likely to do regularly, and get the cave/penetration/mixed gas equipment later.

 

[SeaJay]

I'm not suggesting that you should enter the wreck or cave before you're ready... And certainly not without the proper gear and education... Quite the contrary.

What I am suggesting is that he adopt a gear configuration early on that will suit him in all "types" of diving. I'm not sure why it is that you have the idea that gear "tailored" for one "type" of diving is better than gear that can handle all sorts of diving, but it is definitely not the case. There is much more value in one rig that a diver can learn to master and become intimately familiar with so that the learning process can be incremental - that is, every new thing learned can be in addition to things learned before. The alternative - to learn one thing today, but to have to "unlearn" it later and replace it with something else because it no longer applies to the "type" of diving that someone's doing - is much less efficient, and the diver has a much greater liklihood of making a potentially fatal mistake, because he becomes a "jack of all trades and master of none."

I'm not alone in making this suggestion, either... Check out http://www.deepsouthdivers.org/DIR3-2.wmv for more information. I also recommend http://www.deepsouthdivers.org/DIR3-3.wmv which will show you an up-close look at a gear configuration which works equally well in all "types" of diving. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, check out http://www.deepsouthdivers.org/DIR3-7.wmv , which talks about the value of consistency and standardization in your (and your buddy's) gear across all "types" of diving.

 

[Quarrior]

I guess that's where we might respectfully disagree (although perhaps this is just semantics. You are obviously quite knowledgable and experienced). Were I to make the conversion to penetrating wrecks, I would certainly want to take a class, find out about the new gear, try some out, then buy the gear that works best (and looks the coolest) for me.

I think it's way too easy and tempting for an inexperience person to attempt to "make the conversion" too quickly just because he figures he already has the right gear for it.

The original poster is new to diving and has the cash to spend. While you make great points, I still think I would advise him to get top-o-the-line equipment tailored for the diving he is most likely to do regularly, and get the cave/penetration/mixed gas equipment later.

I can see where you may be getting the basis of your views, that being this board and the numerous threads on various gear configurations, especially between the DIR folks and the rest.

I dive a BP/W and have the long hose with my octo bungeed around my neck. This is not a wreck, cave, or even technical configuration. It is a configuration which allows flexibility for my diving. In the future when I move to wreck or cave or deep diving training, I will not have to learn to use the BP/W, long hose and bungeed octo.

That said, you can use the same configuration for taking pictures out in the carib too. You just don't need a 7ft hose, a 5ft hose is fine for a single tank diver.

I would like to suggest that before you say it is a good idea to buy a standard BC now and then replace it with a BP/W in a year or two and then learn how to use it while learning the new skills needed for the specialty which requires it, try using the BP/W and long hose. Try being on the receiving end of the long hose. Try being the one that donates the long hose and have to do nothing more than flip the bungeed octo into your mouth. I venture to say, you'll never go back to the old way.

It really boils down to comfort and convenience. BP/W is infinately adjustable and you can modify it as needed based on the diving planned.

One other thing, it's a lot more affordable to buy one setup that will work for whatever you are going to do than it is to buy different gear for different diving.

 

[OneBrightGator]

While I believe SeaJay's intentions are good but... he's wrong, and he knows it

A backplate and wings is the way to go, no if's, and's or but's, it's not the flashly truck on the farm, but it does the job the best (figured I'd stick with car analogies here...)

If you're ever in the Gainesville area, swing by and I'll prove we're right.

 

[SeaJay]

While I believe SeaJay's intentions are good but... he's wrong, and he knows it

Heh. The only thing I'm "wrong" about is constantly trying to be the "good ambassador" of Hogarthian rigs or the "good ambassador" of DIR. I really need to cut this out.

I just can't help myself - when someone asks, I just GOTTA make the suggestions that I well remember someone mentioning to me just before I fell in love with the system.

A backplate and wings is the way to go, no if's, and's or but's, it's not the flashly truck on the farm, but it does the job the best (figured I'd stick with car analogies here...)

I dunno... You don't think all of that tough-looking, shiny stainless steel and smooth 2" webbing looks cooler than the day-glo hoses and organically-shaped rubber? To me, if I had to compare it to a car, your average LDS dive gear would be a Toyota Celica - plasticky and poured, pretty from all directions... Truly a delight for the eyes. (At least until the paint fades a bit and your purple Celica begins to look periwinkle. LOL.) But really, when put side-by side with a Hummer or a Harley, which is actually "cooler?" Which is flashier? I think the opinion should be left to the beholder.

That said, I completely understand the attraction of Atomic regulators, Tusa X-pert Zoom fins, PCa Ikelites, and SeaQuest Balance BC's in blue and black, please, to match my Excel wetsuit (with coordinated gloves). It's like this stuff "speaks to me," man. C'mon... Tell me you've never looked at an Aqualung roll-up snorkel and thought, "Neato." Go ahead - tell me. They even make them in black silicone.

...But the more I dive, the more I've come to conclude that stainless and black look cooler, longer... "Lacking flash?" Maybe in the showroom... But look at it again after 150 dives and tell me which still looks "flashy."

I dunno... 'Guess I'm preaching to the choir here.