Political Correctness...a disservice to divers?

[gcbryan]

As you are talking generalities, then so must I!

Take a Class. Dive with your buddy. Don't go to deep! Don't dive in the rain! Don't dive if it is windy! Don't dive in current! Don't dive if it's over your head! Buy low, sell high! A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush! And most important, wear a hat!

Seriously, the post was so general it's hard to add constructive comments, but I for one generally don't pull a punch. And.. honestly, there are a LOT of divers out there that would benefit from taking more training.

Advice provided on the internet is also different from someone standing in front of you at a dive site. I was diving the Grove (Key Largo) a couple summers back. The current was wicked, the vis was 10~15'. This was not a casual easy Grove dive... The Capt. did his best to warn divers that the conditions were tough, and to stay on the ship.

Two newbies went down, and immediately blew off the stern... they say they saw the ship, and then it was gone. Two hours later they were spotted by helicopters... sometimes it does not matter what people say one way or another, others are going to do what they intend to do regardless... and some others react in the opposite way.

No need to pull any punches. That was my point. We need more discussion instead of patting each other on the back.

The examples were made general for a reason...if I had made them specific then people would focus on the specific and the point would have been lost as well.

There are many specific examples over the years I was thinking about as I wrote this post The advise of the majority in many cases was short sighted and has resulted in many divers today who are fairly limited in skills.

Surely you know long time divers who are still very limited in skills...can't make decisions, don't dive at night, don't dive past a certain depth, can't dive in less than perfect conditions, can't navigate, etc. and yet when a diver, newer or not, asks about a certain dive he is told don't do that dive, don't do it unless you talk to the local dive shop first, don't do it unless...

So what happens, people end up thinking doing certain dives must be hard, there must be something to it if everyone says the same thing. However, in many cases all the people commenting haven't done it!

There's a lot of local (to me) warnings that people give that is just crap for the most part and it's usually given by people who haven't done the dive or can't do it well.

And yes, sure there are a lot of divers out there that could do with more training...there's also a lot of those same divers out there that could use some more dives and maybe one's where they actually have to be in charge so that they can learn some things for themselves.

 

[johncayce]

gcbryan, I am going to have to respectively disagree with the PC comment about this board. I read "threads" about the "rules you have broken" and then yes, I do see the "take more classes". But this sport is no different than any other, you have your weenies and your hardcores and everything inbetween. Plus this board spans the globe, which some sports do not particularly do.
Speaking only for myself, I take all the info/advice with a grain of salt. But I've learned quite a bit from this board in the short time I've been on it also. But Pc....mmmm nope. But thanks for stirring the pot, cause things will burn if you don't.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm not sure what you mean by back-patting.

Generally, when I see someone asking questions about a dive, unless it's a blatant case ... like someone who just got certified wanting to go solo (which we're seeing lately more than ever) ... you'll get a pretty broad spectrum of responses.

Compare my outlook to folks like Nemrod, Captain and Dumpster Diver ... we're all pretty active, and we have very different perspectives and usually give different advice. Theirs is no more or less valid than mine ... it's just a different way of looking at things, stemming from differences in training, experience, and typical diving environments.

Compare mine and theirs to Walter and Thalassamania ... different still.

I don't see all that much back-patting going on there. Sometimes if people agree with the advice one of us gave, they'll hit the Thanks button ... I guess that's what it's there for.

But I really don't see a lot of "group think" in these discussions.

Nor do I particularly want to.

There's nothing wrong with being conservative ... and giving conservative advice. There's nothing wrong (within reason) to pushing your limits and exploring your boundaries ... if you're the sort that gets into that approach, and you have at least been made aware of the potential risks.

We're all adults ... and everybody's advice is worth exactly what you paid for it. If someone asks a question, then any answer is fair game.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[gcbryan]

...But thanks for stirring the pot, cause things will burn if you don't.

I like that quote!

 

[Kingpatzer]

There are many specific examples over the years I was thinking about as I wrote this post The advise of the majority in many cases was short sighted and has resulted in many divers today who are fairly limited in skills.

If advice on the internet creates divers who are fairly limited in skills then we wield some mighty power indeed.

When someone is asking a question with all that is known about them comes from a few forum posts it is ludicrous to presume that they are anything but an average diver asking the sort of question an average diver asks.

And the right answer in the majority of such cases is the conservative answer.

 

[TSandM]

I think it's almost certainly true that you don't really grow as a diver unless you stretch, and sometimes overreach. We probably learn far more from the dives that didn't go as we hoped they would than we do from the ones that do. But there is a fine line between pushing the edge of the envelope, and overfacing yourself into a scare or an accident.

I, for one, for example, would always advise a new diver to be extremely cautious about tides and currents, because I haven't liked AT ALL the times I've miscalculated. Did I learn something from those dives? Sure. (Mostly, to be better at figuring slack, and to remember to reset my watch for daylight savings time . . .) Would I cheerfully advise someone else to have those experiences? Not really.

We will all make errors, and we will almost all eventually take on more than we can comfortably handle. It's just part of being an active and ambitious diver. But those situations are the ones where accidents are waiting in the wings, and I don't want to advise anyone, let alone a new diver, to put themselves on the sloping edge of the incident pit. Thus my frequent advice to take a class, or to avoid a given situation, or to face it with more experienced buddies who can prevent the worst errors in judgment.

 

[Sas]

It seems to be PC to automatically tell anyone asking for info to take a class.

This can discourage independent thinking and self reliance. Of course, it can also mask the fact that they person answering just doesn't know the answer as well.

It's common to dissuade divers from diving in any but the most optimal conditions but then how will they react if conditions get a little nasty while they are in the water some day?

I actually think that being too risk adverse or conservative is more dangerous than diving in less than optimal conditions in a planned way as a means of getting experience.

Often people are warned not to do certain dives unless conditions are perfect.

In this regard I think that we are creating an unbalanced class of diver. Highly experienced in one area but helpless without (and even with) taking classes in other areas.

I guess my point is that there is a fine line between just staying no in a non-thinking way (as in don't do anything and you won't get hurt) and actually giving good advice where it is needed.

There's no shortage of PC advice. Some times I think we need a non-PC or straight talking forum!.........

Can you dive without Nitrox...yes, can you dive air to 130 fsw and not go crazy ...yes, can you go diving on a windy, rainy, white cap day...sometimes yes, can you dive where there's a little current..yes...can you get your butt kicked a little ...yes...it's good for you!

We all know that we never stop learning, taking classes is fine, we all need to think and be careful, appropriate gasses are fine, all of the cliches and the obvious are covered pretty well. A little straight talk would be nice to hear every now and then as well.

I really do not agree with this. There are arguments on both sides for pretty much every thread and more than just two arguments. There have been threads lately started by new divers complaining about the harshness of some of the responses to their questions so I do not think people feel in general that this forum is too PC (though it is more so than some other diving forums out there ). Quite honestly I think those threads are an overreaction to someone telling them what they did/planning to do is not smart but there are always people on both sides of every argument making their case. There are some *very* non-PC posters too, which I think is a good thing as sometimes people really need someone to be very blunt.

I actually I think it goes too far one way - the opposite way to what you are stating - and people tend to be reluctant to tell new people very bluntly the seriousness of some of the decisions they make and that they should get more training and experience. Though, there is always a fine line between being nasty and being blunt. For example, I think this thread http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...ering-diving/283566-who-responsible-what.html is a good example of someone who has been very blunt in putting foward a case for how people really need to take more responsibility for their decisions but without being nasty about it. Perhaps more posts like this would be good.

 

[vladimir]

It seems to be PC to automatically tell anyone asking for info to take a class.

The corollary to "Take a class" is "Call DAN," as in:

"I did one dive to forty feet yesterday, ascended at 10 feet per minute, and did a twelve minute safety stop. After lugging 140 pounds of equipment back to my hotel room, my tennis elbow started acting up again. Do I have DCS?"

Chorus of posters beginning with DandyDon: "Call DAN!"

I think that we're such a litigious society that it is always a game of CYA and it is almost a knee jerk reaction to say take a class.

There are A LOT of stupid people out there who will do the dive on the Andrea Doria in swim goggles and NITROX. They die (personally it is Darwinian selection) and the poor guy on the internet who may have given advice that will get sued.

Has anybody ever been sued for giving free advice over the internet?

 

[gcbryan]

If advice on the internet creates divers who are fairly limited in skills then we wield some mighty power indeed.

When someone is asking a question with all that is known about them comes from a few forum posts it is ludicrous to presume that they are anything but an average diver asking the sort of question an average diver asks.

And the right answer in the majority of such cases is the conservative answer.

Well, if "we" don't have any influence then what's the point of posting and what's the worry about giving "liberal" advice.

Fair points regarding the answers to be given but in that case perhaps we don't need forums but rather stickie's that just say get more training, don't dive beyond your training, if you have to ask...the answer is no, etc.

Although, I would (and did) argue that sometimes the less conservative answer is the safest one.

Don't drive in traffic is the conservative answer but if a driver avoids driving in traffic due to inexperience what happens when they have to go pick up a family member stranded on the side of the freeway at rush hour. They do it but aren't experienced and potentially get into an accident.

Conservative answer but least safe approach.

 

[Sas]

Has anybody ever been sued for giving free advice over the internet?

Not successfully yet, but I believe the legal liability has not been really tested yet (at least where I am) so there are potential legal problems with giving out advice. Though I would imagine it is really more an issue with professional advice where there might be a professional-client relationship and specific advice is given out i.e. doctor-patient, not so much with random people on the net. Disclaimers can give some protection I believe.

Edit: I wonder if this relates to forum owner liability for advice given out as well, not just the posters. There were a few cases locally where people have threatened to sue based on information posted on forums but the forum has either censored the post or the case has been settled before court. Though the main case I remember involved product reviews (2Clix versus Whirlpool).