Political Correctness...a disservice to divers?

[gcbryan]

I think it's almost certainly true that you don't really grow as a diver unless you stretch, and sometimes overreach. We probably learn far more from the dives that didn't go as we hoped they would than we do from the ones that do. But there is a fine line between pushing the edge of the envelope, and overfacing yourself into a scare or an accident.

I, for one, for example, would always advise a new diver to be extremely cautious about tides and currents, because I haven't liked AT ALL the times I've miscalculated. Did I learn something from those dives? Sure. (Mostly, to be better at figuring slack, and to remember to reset my watch for daylight savings time . . .) Would I cheerfully advise someone else to have those experiences? Not really.

We will all make errors, and we will almost all eventually take on more than we can comfortably handle. It's just part of being an active and ambitious diver. But those situations are the ones where accidents are waiting in the wings, and I don't want to advise anyone, let alone a new diver, to put themselves on the sloping edge of the incident pit. Thus my frequent advice to take a class, or to avoid a given situation, or to face it with more experienced buddies who can prevent the worst errors in judgment.

Of course you understand that my position isn't the opposite being that of advocating that the answer to all new diver's questions should be "go for it".

I would disagree with your position above regarding current...not necessarily to a brand new diver or an extremely current sensitive site but in a more reasonable scenario there's nothing wrong learning to deal with a little current. To do otherwise would create a diver with an unnatural fear of mild current when living and diving in an area where current is a fact of life.

 

[gcbryan]

I'm not sure what you mean by back-patting.

Generally, when I see someone asking questions about a dive, unless it's a blatant case ... like someone who just got certified wanting to go solo (which we're seeing lately more than ever) ... you'll get a pretty broad spectrum of responses.

Compare my outlook to folks like Nemrod, Captain and Dumpster Diver ... we're all pretty active, and we have very different perspectives and usually give different advice. Theirs is no more or less valid than mine ... it's just a different way of looking at things, stemming from differences in training, experience, and typical diving environments.

Compare mine and theirs to Walter and Thalassamania ... different still.

I don't see all that much back-patting going on there. Sometimes if people agree with the advice one of us gave, they'll hit the Thanks button ... I guess that's what it's there for.

But I really don't see a lot of "group think" in these discussions.

Nor do I particularly want to.

There's nothing wrong with being conservative ... and giving conservative advice. There's nothing wrong (within reason) to pushing your limits and exploring your boundaries ... if you're the sort that gets into that approach, and you have at least been made aware of the potential risks.

We're all adults ... and everybody's advice is worth exactly what you paid for it. If someone asks a question, then any answer is fair game.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I agree that once you put an answer (or question) out there that any response was (implicitly) asked for and is valid.

I threw a lot of things out for discussion that I don't see discussed often. Some of the background was current, some past, some other boards, but all issues that come up from time to time and all things that people can discuss in this post if they find there to be something to say or not.

There's certainly variety on this board. Sometimes perhaps people give stock answers or give answers without thinking about them. Maybe not.

One thing that crops up from time to time on all boards is getting into the debate mode and taking the easy way out by arguing as a belief instead of taking the facts each time. Then it becomes one side vs the other when in many cases that wasn't called for at all.

This usually takes the form of assuming the worse about the poster with a different opinion and reading any comments made in the least favorable light rather than the most likely interpretation.

You know how it goes...if I were to say well I'm going to dive site X...someone could post well if you want to risk your neck fine but I have a wife and kid to come home too.

Or you use a cheap light but when it's life support equipment I want the best.

In other words strawman arguments. Arguing against a position that the other person wouldn't advocate in the first place.

 

[Deep Insight]

I don't believe you can give the same answer to every situation. Let them know of your expeirence and be honest. Its also ok to let them know if they are unsure of what to do then take a class, ask an instructor, dive master, or boat captain because they will have the knowledge of that particular dive, but as another person said here OP may just jump off the boat into the current and drop to 130' anyway. having run a charter boat I know this one for a fact and yes, dive professionals especially and buddies can be held liable, because there is always some blood sucking lawyer out there ready to defend someone who refuses to be responsible for themselves. I have had tons of training and lots of expierience and both have made me a better diver. People forget that there are Both/and's in this world that it dosen't have to be "Take a class OR Jump In!" it can be and well balanced selection of both:cool2:

 

[ptyx]

It seems to be PC to automatically tell anyone asking for info to take a class.

This can discourage independent thinking and self reliance.

Indeed. And discourage curiosity.

Some questions are scary enough that a "don't take advice from the internet and go bet your life on it" disclaimer seems warranted. But too often that is the only content of the response - and anyone still believing that "if it's on the internet, it ought to be true" needs much more than a diving class.

In most questions as well, there is nothing indicating whether it got asked out of intellectual curiosity/preparatory work before taking a class, or if it is an actual dive plan. Assuming the later seems to be the norm

Even if it was a dive plan, actual responses - even incomplete - can only add to the mental checklist of concepts the author will want to fully understand before going there. To me, learning the extent of what I don't know is a much stronger enticement to take a class (I'm curious now - I want to learn!) than a summary dismissal. Especially since not all diving classes are worth the time and money investment...

 

[rstofer]

Surely you know long time divers who are still very limited in skills...can't make decisions, don't dive at night, don't dive past a certain depth, can't dive in less than perfect conditions, can't navigate, etc. and yet when a diver, newer or not, asks about a certain dive he is told don't do that dive, don't do it unless you talk to the local dive shop first, don't do it unless...

So, instead of telling a diver to get more training, you suggest we describe in great detail exactly HOW to do night dives, deco dives, deep dives, penetration dives? Maybe Nitrox dives with no concept of OTL or MOD? At what point do you draw a line?

In most every case I can think of, where a 0-24 dive poster asked about these, the right answer WAS 'take a class'. It would border on criminal to suggest a specific procedure. It would absolutely be negligent.

By the time a diver is ready to do these things, they will already know how to do them. They will have taken a class.

If the diver doesn't take the initiative to get additional training, maybe they should stay in the shallow end.

In general, I think the responses have been pretty much right on. Take a class...

Richard

 

[gcbryan]

Indeed. And discourage curiosity.

Some questions are scary enough that a "don't take advice from the internet and go bet your life on it" disclaimer seems warranted. But too often that is the only content of the response - and anyone still believing that "if it's on the internet, it ought to be true" needs much more than a diving class.

In most questions as well, there is nothing indicating whether it got asked out of intellectual curiosity/preparatory work before taking a class, or if it is an actual dive plan. Assuming the later seems to be the norm

Even if it was a dive plan, actual responses - even incomplete - can only add to the mental checklist of concepts the author will want to fully understand before going there. To me, learning the extent of what I don't know is a much stronger enticement to take a class (I'm curious now - I want to learn!) than a summary dismissal. Especially since not all diving classes are worth the time and money investment...

Exactly. We encourage divers to get info before they do something so they come to get some more info before they do a dive and the only response is don't do it.

Of course sometimes this is the only response one could give but in general that's not the case. When I was newer, but still had quite a few dives, i would go to a local board to ask about dives in a local dive book only to be told not to do them. I didn't go to the board for permission. I was going to do the dives. I went to gather additional info if anyone had any.

Everyone one on the board, same voice, different bodies, gave the same message. However, the silent majority...sent me many emails telling me how they did it and gave me the info I wanted.

This is an old example and is not the reason for this thread (there is no reason other than to have an interesting discussion) but it illustrates your comment regarding diver curiosity (and back patting for that matter).

 

[vladimir]

So, instead of telling a diver to get more training, you suggest we describe in great detail exactly HOW to do night dives, deco dives, deep dives, penetration dives? Maybe Nitrox dives with no concept of OTL or MOD? At what point do you draw a line?

I don't know where you draw the line, but most would agree that this recent post was way over the line, and deserved the entreaties to "take a class" that it elicited:

Any caves to dive in So-Cal that aren't on Catalina? I'm planning on using a safety line in the cave and i dive wrecks often so I'm comfortable with overhead environments. I would prefer a novice cave if anybody knows of one.

And does anybody have any advice that would pertain to my plan? I am in no way an expert on cave diving but have read a lot into it, and can use any tips I can get.

On the extreme other side of the line, in my opinion, have been inquiries about Nitrox that get the "take a class" treatment too, when it is clearly something you can learn on the internet.

 

[ptyx]

So, instead of telling a diver to get more training, you suggest we describe in great detail exactly HOW to do night dives, deco dives, deep dives, penetration dives?

Yes (although not necessarily how - mostly what problems it involves). And this is actually a good example.

Would you really direct divers to a night diving specialty class? Or - pushing it - a boat diving specialty class?

Once those divers took those (arguably useless) specialties, how do you expect they'll react when they get the same exact reaction for any question?

And, without extra information (i.e. answers), why should they trust a "take a class" answer more than a "Want to clear nets with a RB in a cave in 40F water? Just go ahead" one?

 

[gcbryan]

So, instead of telling a diver to get more training, you suggest we describe in great detail exactly HOW to do night dives, deco dives, deep dives, penetration dives? Maybe Nitrox dives with no concept of OTL or MOD? At what point do you draw a line?...

No, but this is an example, more or less, of the strawman argument I referred to in an earlier post.

You're stating my case to an extreme that I think you know that I didn't intend to go to. I'm obviously not going to attempt to tell anyone how to do a penetration dive (for one thing I don't do them) but if someone has a few dives and is planning a night dive and has a few specific questions I guess you would say "go take a class" and I would attempt to answer their question.

If it's someone with 0-24 dives asking about in water recompression...well, I'm sure you know what my response would be...the same as yours.

On another board recently a newer diver wanted to better understand dive planning regarding tides and currents. He had been on a local dive where he had to trust others. He ended up in a little current.

He requested that some one post a link to a current planning site and go step by step through the process for a specific day so that he could go through the same process and see if he could get the same figures.

I took the time to do just that. Most other people said ..."go take a class". Even after I typed out several pages of info most people said "go take a class".

In effect, I just gave the guy a class. This isn't something where you have to have a class. He does these dives anyway. He will do them next time with much better result.

 

[DaleC]

Interesting thread GC, thaks for bringing it up.

I think the liability issue is a red herring if you don't put yourself in a position of telling someone else what to do. A while ago some of us in the solo subforum thought it would be best to simply describe our experience, as it pertains to us. No advice, just our own personal experience. Do with it what you want.

I try to maintain enough faith in humanity that most people can make good decisions for themselves if given enough information. I certainly don't put myself in the position of saving humanity from itself.