Political Correctness...a disservice to divers?

[rstofer]

I have no problem with providing info on tides and currents. It gets a little complicated when you are dealing with tributaries and you need some info re: reference stations. There is also the issue of east coast versus west coast but the United States Power Squadrons classes covered the material pretty well. I have worksheets around here somewhere. So, yes, I took a class.

But what you just did was draw a line. You won't provide info on penetration dives. Good, neither will I. I am unqualified and I know it. Each responder has drawn their own line. Many replied with "take a class". That's their line.

If a diver asks a specific question, say, "How do I mount the Cyalume stick for maximum visibility?", it shows that they have done some homework. They know that they need the stick and that it needs to be mounted. It shows initiative. Not that that question would ever come up. OTOH, something like "I got my OW last Sunday and now I want to do a night dive, what do I do?" probably deserves a "take a class" response. The poster hasn't done even a minimal amount of research. They have no business doing the dive and I'm not going to provide a process. I'll pile on to 'take a class' if I reply at all.

I tend to look at dive count (not that mine is so very high) and their training level (if given) and the level of thought they have put into whatever it is they're asking about. If they're 0-24 and haven't given a moment's thought to the question, haven't even read the text book they should already have then I usually pile on to the "take a class" group.

Why don't they have a reference library? When I started diving, I went to the book store and bought everything I could find. That was before I even signed up for the OW I class. I KNEW that diving was dangerous and I wanted to know as much as possible before I got started. There is absolutely no reason that new divers don't buy the Adventures In Diving book (or other equivalent) and spend some time reading. They're lazy! They want instant answers from the Internet.

If the diver posting a question hasn't completed Rescue, maybe the right answer really is "take a class". I don't consider basic OW training complete until after OW, AOW and Rescue. The vast majority of divers never progress beyond OW in terms of formal training and yet they want to do dives well beyond that level. Can they make 100' dives without AOW? Sure! And many will, over time. But I'm not going to give any more information than the fact that they need to watch their air consumption and their dive tables. I am absolutely not going to encourage them to make the dive. Their OW cert recommends a maximum depth of 60' and I'm not even comfortable with that.

So I guess what really happens is that the answers sort of reflect how people view the experience of the poster. I don't think PC enters into it. It's just that nobody wants to provide answers that, although arguably correct, result in someone getting hurt. Maybe we were better off without the Internet. Back then divers had to take classes and read books.

But I just can't get past the guy over in the Tanks forum that recommends plugging the burst disk hole and filling aluminum 80s to 4000 psi. There is some particularly dangerous advice being passed out on the Internet.

Richard

 

[boulderjohn]

I am going to try to state a complex philosophical point that is hard to explain. It is a thought that I myself developed, so if it already exists with a given name (and it probably does). I don't know it.

I believe that every organization of people with any particular area of interest, whether it is a group like this, hobbyists, a political party, a religion--anything, will have its discussions shaped in some way by its extremists. If you have something like a centrist opinion on anything related to the topic and someone expresses an opinion more extreme than yours, it is psychologically intimidating, for you really can't challenge the more extreme position without calling your own position into question.

You can see it most clearly with religion, where extremists are rarely challenged from the more moderate believers. Once someone has taken an extreme stand on a religious point, it is hard for a moderate to disagree without sounding like he or she is questioning the very concept itself.

It exists everywhere, though. I used to brew beer at home, and I belonged to an online group like this. Our discussions often included absurdly extreme positions on some of the most silly issues related to brewing.

In contrast, the ancient Greeks, Aristotle in particular, expressed a concept called "the golden mean." According to this concept, the ideal is in the middle of two extreme positions. That ideal is the opposite of what too often happens, which is what I described above.

Let's take a concept that relates to the point of this thread: courage. Many people would see courage as an extreme position, but to the Greeks it is a centrist position. At one extreme is cowardice, in which one fails to take reasonable or appropriate risks because of fears for safety. The other extreme is foolish rashness, in which one takes unreasonable and inappropriate risks without proper regard for safety. The courageous person weighs the situation carefully, takes all factors into consideration and then acts in spite of any remaining personal fears or concerns.

The thinking diver looks at a situation and then begins to evaluate the situation before making a decision. One way to get more information is to come to a forum like this one. The responses should span the range from extreme caution to extreme foolhardiness, with the bulk being in the middle (the golden mean), but they will not. That is because, as I said earlier, once extreme positions are posted, it is psychologically difficult for the centrists to speak. If you believe a diver should pay attention to safety but be willing to take a reasonable risk, it is hard to say that after several others have stated a more extreme "you can never be too safe" viewpoint, because you fear you will come off as advocating risk.

 

[TSandM]

Beautiful post, as usual, John.

I also think what answer you get varies with the person who is answering. Some of us LIKE to take classes. I do a ton of research on my own, about everything, but I worry about the holes in what I find -- the things, to use a phrase Gray doesn't like, that I don't know I don't know. Classes give me some reassurance, because I'm assuming that the instructor or agency has put together the core information and skills they think are important, that I'm not missing something vital. Classes (good ones, that is) tend to be an efficient way to learn, because they're organized and everything is together in one place.

On the other hand, classes are something you have to be able to make on your schedule, and they cost money. Some things, like tide/current planning, or rock bottom gas, really ARE possible to learn on your own, using internet or other resources. (You can still get skunked by dive sites where there are eddy currents, or where the water behavior isn't what you'd predict from the charts, like Skyline.) But I think rstofer has a good point -- people who are willing to put in the work to learn this kind of stuff generally do some research before they get this far, and ask questions liked, "I've been reading a bunch of threads on this, and I don't understand "X"." With this kind of person, you know information you spend a lot of time putting together will be put to good use. With somebody who comes with a much less well-crafted question, sometimes I ask them questions in return -- what exactly do you want to do? Where are you going to do it? Who are you planning to go with? -- and judge the answer on those data.

 

[rstofer]

Interesting point!

But I'm not sure I attribute 'thinking diver' to many of the types of posts we are discussing. One of the worst ways to get information is to come to a forum. The centrist divers may very well not respond and this leaves only the extremes. The "don't do it" bunch and the "heck yea, go for it" bunch. The thoughtful divers may decide that the question requires too much effort to answer adequately and that their response will either be ignored by the poster who may have already tipped their hand as to their intentions or be blown away by the extremist views.

Topics I find questionable include "help me select my gear", "I can't make a decision between ..." and similar topics. Every single response will be "I use this and it's terrific!" with not one shred of test data to support a recommendation. The other side is magazine reviews. In this case, every product will get some accolades simply because the manufacturer is an advertiser. I wonder if they advertise simply to avoid a negative review. Hm...

A better way to frame the equipment questions would be "what specific characteristics are important in ...". Not "what should I buy" but "what should I consider important". One question shows no understanding of the issues and probably will result in "buy what I bought" while the other may actually begin an interesting discussion.

In this regard the quip: "I'll try to be nicer if you try to be smarter" might actually apply. Better answers will be given when better questions are asked.

There are some extreme positions posted by 'uber' divers. Many times these opinions are at odds with what I have held dear. The problem is, these few divers actually have the right answers and my opinions need to be rethought. I appreciate their comments even if I initially think them bizarre or extreme. I actually find myself looking through the contributors to a thread looking for their responses. These few divers have a wide range of experience in many different environments and for many different applications. I really respect their opinions.

Of course, the problem is reading enough threads to separate out those whose opinions I should heed.

There are a lot of the "you can't be too safe" responses. But I think you need to read the original post carefully to get some idea of the level of the diver. If it is apparent that the diver is probably capable of doing a specific dive but needs a little more information, then fine, provide it. If it seems the question relates to a dive well beyond that perceived level, "take a class" comes to mind.

The problem is the anonymity of the Internet. I don't know who I'm talking to and I don't know if they are paying attention. I don't know how old they are and I can't gauge their ability to comprehend. In a face to face conversation you can see how your response is being accepted. You can change your approach. If one response doesn't seem to make things clear then you can try another.

Another problem is speed. You can compose and type at, perhaps, 50 words per minute. Probably a lot less. It is easy to speak at several times that rate. With a whiteboard you can include diagrams. The presentation is much more complete.

I'm a big risk taker. Always have been. But I don't recommend it and I certainly won't be passing on my failings to my grandson. In terms of his diving, he really can't be too safe. He won't be doing any deep dives any time soon. He will never exceed the recommended limits of his cert level. I do not want to be the one that has to live with a negative outcome. It's ok for me to take risks. It is not ok for me to recommend them to others.

Still, it's been an interesting thread. No resolutions but a variety of interesting opinions.

Richard

 

[meierdierck]

I like Boulder John's concept, and statistics was one of my favorite classes.......
But IMO <Feel free to disagree> you can place the population on a standard bell shaped curve and it should fall pretty close into 10% on each extereme, with a strong 80%, (with a standard deviation) in the mid range, my only ammendment to your very well thought out post would be that a forum like this is naturally going to attract more people from the extreme end than the non extreme, thus naturally skewing the responses to the extreme end (creating a bell curve within the bell curve, so to speak), because (again IMO) people seek out information that supports what they believe, and reject information that does not support their beliefs, ie; GUE will seek & support different posts than DSAT, NAUI will seek/ support different than PADI,

 

[meierdierck]

-- people who are willing to put in the work to learn this kind of stuff generally do some research before they get this far, and ask questions liked, "I've been reading a bunch of threads on this, and I don't understand "X"." With this kind of person, you know information you spend a lot of time putting together will be put to good use. With somebody who comes with a much less well-crafted question, sometimes I ask them questions in return -- what exactly do you want to do? Where are you going to do it? Who are you planning to go with? -- and judge the answer on those data.

I agree with this , and I think SB is a very good way to get multiple answers to specific questions, and maybe all it took was a little tweek or rephrasing from what the instructor has said to allow the student to "get it", or reading the same sam einformation rephrased in multiple ways helps the idea formulate in the students mind..
I know I have read alot of different ways to explain some of the OW concepts, and I plan on incorporating into my own classroom presentations

 

[Kingpatzer]

Fair points regarding the answers to be given but in that case perhaps we don't need forums but rather stickie's that just say get more training, don't dive beyond your training, if you have to ask...the answer is no, etc.

The conservative position being nearly always right doesn't mean it's always the best answer on a particular topic - and there are plenty of cases on these forums where enough detail was given behind a question to make a less conservative answer be more than reasonable.

Someone saying "I have just completed OW and want to start cave diving what do I do" will get a very different response from someone who comes in saying " I have several hundred dives, mostly in quarries, silt filled local lakes and scuttled wrecks and I'd like to get into some real penetration diving, my trim is already very good and I've finished off my trimix courses. I'm heading down to Mexico for a couple of weeks later this year, I want to do some cave dives while there, who should I contact and what should I expect? What can I do to prepare and which courses will be appropriate while there?"

Although, I would (and did) argue that sometimes the less conservative answer is the safest one.

It is certainly possible to be so conservative that one's enjoyment is curtailed, but I'm not sure I can think of a situation where risk is increased by being more conservative.

Don't drive in traffic is the conservative answer but if a driver avoids driving in traffic due to inexperience what happens when they have to go pick up a family member stranded on the side of the freeway at rush hour. They do it but aren't experienced and potentially get into an accident.

In that case though, the conservative answer is not "drive where I don't have experience," but "call a cab, friend, or someone else with appropriate experience."

Your analogy is akin to saying "well, I never dive below 30' because I don't want to take too many risks" and then one day deciding to drop down to 130' solo.

The point that we expand our skill base through going to progressively more challenging exercises is of course obviously correct. But you don't go from pee-wee football to the NFL in one jump for a reason.

Reasonable progression and conservative diving principles are not in opposition to each other.

 

[boulderjohn]

I like Boulder John's concept, and statistics was one of my favorite classes.......
But IMO <Feel free to disagree> you can place the population on a standard bell shaped curve and it should fall pretty close into 10% on each extereme, with a strong 80%, (with a standard deviation) in the mid range, my only ammendment to your very well thought out post would be that a forum like this is naturally going to attract more people from the extreme end than the non extreme, thus naturally skewing the responses to the extreme end (creating a bell curve within the bell curve, so to speak), because (again IMO) people seek out information that supports what they believe, and reject information that does not support their beliefs, ie; GUE will seek & support different posts than DSAT, NAUI will seek/ support different than PADI,

I agree that SB is not going to represent the general population and its bell curve, but a further distortion is the distribution of people who actually post to threads, which can be vastly different from the population as a whole.

Here is what I believe to be an analogous situation.

Years ago I was teaching journalism in a high school, and a sore subject came up in the class--smoking in the girls room. The consensus in the class was that the majority of girls in the school were heavy smokers who made the girls rooms unpleasant places for the non-smoking minority. Those who felt they were in that minority were afraid to say or do anything about it because they were so badly outnumbered.

I took the opportunity to discuss scientific survey methods, and we devised a survey and used a very good methodology to identify a very large representative polling population. As a result, we learned that only 14% of the girls in school smoked at all, and only half of them (7% of the total school population) smoked in the girls room. In contrast, 87% of the population (including many of the smokers) were extremely annoyed by the fact that girls smoked in the girls room and wished something would be done about it. The reality of the situation was the polar opposite of the general perception.

The problem was that the 7% of the girls that smoked did it so often that there was usually at least on or two in there smoking. Most girls avoided the rest rooms because they felt intimated by the presence of the smokers. Because smokers used the rest room to smoke much more frequently than it is used for its normal purposes, there was always a majority of smokers in there. This created the illusion that they existed in much greater numbers than they did.

It does not matter what the actual shape of the distribution curve might be. What matters is what we perceive it to be. In a forum like this, a handful of people (or even one) who take every opportunity to express a certain point of view will create the illusion that they represent a dominant viewpoint, even though they may be in a tiny minority. If they speak strongly and with passion, they will bring on the intimidation factor I mentioned earlier.

Let's take the issue of BCDs for example. I own several, including back inflates and a couple of backplates and wings, but that is not what I see when I dive in typical resort areas. I have traveled to resorts all over the world for diving, and I am not sure I have seen more than a dozen or so BP/Ws on the thousands of divers I have seen. My conservative estimate is that 96% of those divers are wearing jacket style BCDs. However, if someone asks about BCDs on ScubaBoard, they will get the impression that the majority of divers wear BP/Ws, and jacket styles are rarely used and largely discouraged.

 

[Kingpatzer]

ignore this post -- i hit submit again by mistake

 

[gcbryan]

Beautiful post, as usual, John.

I also think what answer you get varies with the person who is answering. Some of us LIKE to take classes. I do a ton of research on my own, about everything, but I worry about the holes in what I find -- the things, to use a phrase Gray doesn't like, that I don't know I don't know. Classes give me some reassurance, because I'm assuming that the instructor or agency has put together the core information and skills they think are important, that I'm not missing something vital. Classes (good ones, that is) tend to be an efficient way to learn, because they're organized and everything is together in one place.

On the other hand, classes are something you have to be able to make on your schedule, and they cost money. Some things, like tide/current planning, or rock bottom gas, really ARE possible to learn on your own, using internet or other resources. (You can still get skunked by dive sites where there are eddy currents, or where the water behavior isn't what you'd predict from the charts, like Skyline.) But I think rstofer has a good point -- people who are willing to put in the work to learn this kind of stuff generally do some research before they get this far, and ask questions liked, "I've been reading a bunch of threads on this, and I don't understand "X"." With this kind of person, you know information you spend a lot of time putting together will be put to good use. With somebody who comes with a much less well-crafted question, sometimes I ask them questions in return -- what exactly do you want to do? Where are you going to do it? Who are you planning to go with? -- and judge the answer on those data.

(By the way, good post above John...I couldn't agree more and if kind of finds into the strawman argument fallacy I referred to).

I agree Lynne, and if someone says I just got certified how do I go on a night dive or deep dive or whatever I'll probably either say take a class or I won't bother to post.

Just as an example you've probably seen my long posts on another board helping someone out with currents...everyone else for the most part said take a class. He obviously had put a great deal of thought into this matter and had done current dives but needed more help.

Sure you can still get into back eddies or whatever if you learn on your own or take a class but you can also get out of them.