Primary donation

[boulderjohn]

In this thread, the OP added a condition that was not in DCBC's statement, and that is, so far, the only point to which people have responded--the long hose.

DCBC said that primary donation (no length of hose specified) is bad because it puts the donor at risk. I wonder if anyone would like to respond to that point alone.

 

[rongoodman]

DCBC said that primary donation (no length of hose specified) is bad because it puts the donor at risk. I wonder if anyone would like to respond to that point alone.

I can't think of any other way the OOA diver can get a regulator that is guaranteed both to be working AND have the proper gas. I'm having a hard time seeing how it puts the donor at any significant risk in comparison.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Gear entaglement. When you start adding things like can lights and stage bottles, there is the added complexity of ensuring that the light cord doesn't get tangled with the long hose, and that you don't trap the long hose when unclipping/clipping stage bottles.

That is the reason DIR omits the right hip D-ring.

The long hose routes under the light cannister and the light cord comes out the top of the can and routes along your arm so it won't tangle in the long hose. When gearing up, clip the light head to the right shoulder d-ring with the cord coiled between the ring anf the can and you won't tangle anything in the cord while gearing up.

Similarly, when I gear up I leave the long hose and primary reg coiled beside me and put it under the can and around my neck last after every thing else is in place - last on = first off. On a boat where space is tight, and or where the neighbor could come crashing down on it, I will set the primary under the bench beneath me until ready to put it on.

In terms of a right hip D-ring, I do rebel and use one for very limited purposes - but it is mounted very close to the plate and is a couple inches behind the can light. Carrying reels on a hip d-ring places them below you and creates a danglie, but on a D-ring mounted close to the plate a reel there is no longer the low point on you. It works well for example for the primary reel at the start of the dive, or immediately after picking up a smaller jump reel. In practice have not had issues with a reel or two there trapping the long hose. Worst case if it did, you immediately have 5' available and the other 2' would only take a couple secnds more to clear.

As you note above stage bottles on the right side are problematic as the can light has to be well aft to accommodate a hip d-ring in the normal location and it is far too easy for the long hose to end up in front of the D-ring and consequently run under the bolt snap leading to a stage or deco bottle.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

In this thread, the OP added a condition that was not in DCBC's statement, and that is, so far, the only point to which people have responded--the long hose.

DCBC said that primary donation (no length of hose specified) is bad because it puts the donor at risk. I wonder if anyone would like to respond to that point alone.

I am assuming the "risk" is created by:

1. The donating diver not being able to deal with the loss of the reg from their mouth;

2. The donating diver having difficulty finding their alternate reg (as with most octo holders they are not in the same place under water than they are above water, and if it comes loose, it can end up behind the diver); and

3. The donating diver discovering his much ingnored octo is full of sand, silt, seaweed, has a stuck exhaust valve, does not work at all, etc.

The reality is however that in a high percentage of cases, the OOA diver needs air right now and is not going to engsge in that silly crap of giving an OOA signal and waiting for the donating diver to process it and react. This is particularly true if the OOA diver discovers the OOA after they exhaled and then got nothing from the reg / and or if they have had to swim a significant distance to the diver or to catch the diver. You can argue "training" all you want, but the fact remains a diver who has been seriously short of gas for any significant period of time and/or after any degree of exertion, and/or who is near a point of panic, is just going to go for the primary and then maybe ask later.

It makes more sense to train for real world situations so that you are abel to deal with them effectively. That means training to donate the primary and it also means training to anticipate being mugged for your primary.

----

In my opinion, the long hose primary and bungeed octo addresses all of the above very effectively.

1. It ensures the back up reg is easy to find, has not been drug through the mud, etc so that the diver can find it - with minimal practice and the correct length bungee, you can even access it with no hands.

2. The diver is prepared to donate the reg that he is most likely to have stolen anyway, so it so surprise or problem if that happens.

3. The OOA diver gets a long hose reg that he can then breathe off of without feeling the reg is about to be pulled out of his mouth. That does wonders to calm the diver. Simlarly, ascents on the long hose are much easier - an order of magnitude easier.

4. If for some reason an OOA diver actually does ask for gas, the diver can just hand them the primary, so training to donate the primary and using a long hose creates no downsides with divers who may be trained differently.

 

[dbulmer]

Where I could see an issue is with a diver who is uncomfortable without a reg in their mouth for a few seconds. Typically this might be a new diver or infrequent diver. The ability to exchange long hose to backup and vice versa needs to be practiced frequently. Without the practice there is the possibility that the donor could end up without an air source and perhaps panic.

For regular divers who practice regularly this is a non issue but infrequent divers are possible grounds for concern for this and many other reasons.

With any sort of air sharing there are 2 parts - the kit and the procedures that go with it. Kit is very rarely the issue - lack of practice or familiarity with the procedure is usually the cause for concern.

 

[DCBC]

I can't think of any other way the OOA diver can get a regulator that is guaranteed both to be working AND have the proper gas. I'm having a hard time seeing how it puts the donor at any significant risk in comparison.

I'll try to explain my position on this. As has been noted, it is based upon the philosophy of all of the world's lifeguarding agencies to: "Never willingly place the rescuer at risk."

Ron's suggestion that "I can't think of any other way the OOA diver can get a regulator that is guaranteed both to be working AND have the proper gas" makes this point clearly, but I will rephrase it slightly:

"I can't think of any other way the Rescuer can get a regulator that is guaranteed both to be working AND have the proper gas."

If the secondary functions properly, no problem. Some may retort that "the OOA Diver will go for the one that he knows is working and rip it out of your mouth." All I can say is that this has not been my experience in dealing with divers OOA at depth.

You should have situational awareness and should not be surprised. Seldom do divers run OOA without any warning. I think it's fair to say that we check our tank pressure periodically. If you are doing your job as a buddy, you know your partners tank pressure, so why would you not thumb the dive before he's OOA?

I can appreciate that a 1st stage could malfunction, but we can provide our secondary to the OOA diver and if he should be aware of its placement anyway. In any event, they take the regulator presented, not the one farthest away. There is a possibility that if they catch you unawares, you will have to go for the secondary, but that's not what I would suggest as preferable (although this may be required).

If the secondary is presented/taken and it doesn't work, we will either be in a position to buddy breath, or the OOA diver will do a CESA. Either way the Rescuer is in a relatively safe position.

What do you do if you donate your primary, your secondary fails and the OOA diver doesn't know how to buddy breath?

How do you assess the situation you now find yourself in?

Obviously you are a lot worse than if you had retained the primary and gave the secondary.

 

[Gerbs]

I'll try to explain my position on this. As has been noted, it is based upon the philosophy of all of the world's lifeguarding agencies to: "Never willingly place the rescuer at risk."

...

If the secondary does not work, we will either be in a position to buddy breath, or the OOA diver will do a CESA, either way the Rescuer is in a relatively safe position. What do you do if you donate your primary, your secondary fails and the OOA diver doesn't know how to buddy breath? How do you assess the situation you now find yourself in? Obviously you are a lot worse than if you had retained the primary and gave the secondary.

I now understand your position better.

Two (and a half) thoughts:

1. A necklaced secondary reduces the most common failure modes (damage/silting through dragging; unfindable /not releasable) of the secondary. Testing for working secondary is trivial to do, and you are motivated to keep it working, as you know it is for you.
2. Fundamentally, you are in the situation of having one regulator between two divers either way. You either are in the same situation you would be in before, had you given a non-functioning secondary, or this situation is immediately achieved by regulator repossession. I'll concede that repossession of a regulator from a panicked diver may require more effort, though. (He has panic, you have panic and righteous indignation at that idiot not being able to buddy breathe. You win! )

It comes down to "Who is more able to handle a regulator malfunction?" and I still believe that anyone OOA should not have to initially deal with any further complications, especially if the system employed further reduces the likelihood of a follow on failure.

I believe that overall, primary donate reduces risk, as escalation is less steep (the OOA diver has the initial problem solved, the next problem can now be solved in good order rather than the OOA diver getting handed more problems before solving the underlying problem).

But thank you very much for elaborating your position - I now understand the logic, which I didn't earlier.

Gerbs

 

[Nemrod]

My wife and I donate the secondary (octopus) and we breath the short hose primary. We do not donate the primary. It works better for us, is more streamlined and efficient with our BCs and it is the way the vast majority of divers are taught and conditioned and expect.

The long hose Hog looping concept does not deploy as quickly as the standard octopus configuration and is prone to entanglement. For open water sport diving I see no reason to switch to a cave diving/overhead tech system.

N

 

[DCBC]

Fundamentally, you are in the situation of having one regulator between two divers either way. You either are in the same situation you would be in before, had you given a non-functioning secondary, or this situation is immediately achieved by regulator repossession. I'll concede that repossession of a regulator from a panicked diver may require more effort, though. (He has panic, you have panic and righteous indignation at that idiot not being able to buddy breathe. You win! )

Thanks for your response Gerbs. I do however have to disagree with your noted statement. You are not "in the same situation you would be in before, had you given a non-functioning secondary." Lets examine the difference:

#1 In my scenario

1. You (the Rescuer) has air and does not need to get to the surface.
2. The OOA Diver finds a non-functioning Secondary.
3. The OOA Diver will either ask to buddy breath, or do a CESA.
4. The OOA Diver is unencumbered; he simply drops the non-functioning secondary and does a CESA.
5. You would follow the OOA Diver to the surface and be there for support, as required.

#2 In your scenario

1. The OOA Diver has air and does not need to get to the surface.
2. You (the Rescuer) finds a non-functioning Secondary.
3. You will either ask to buddy breath, or do a CESA.
4. If a CESA is required, you are encumbered.
5. Trying to retrieve the only functioning regulator may result in both divers drowning.
6. Alternatively, you could attempt to remove your kit and make a CESA yourself.
7. The OOA Diver may not be able to closely follow you to the surface (suited with a non-functioning BC and an operational one in his hands).

Personally, I'm going to pick Door #1.

 

[TSandM]

we will either be in a position to buddy breath,

This is where I shake my head. To me, you have put the rescuer at FAR more risk if you have to buddy-breathe than you have by simply donating the primary. With the bungeed backup setup, you know precisely where the backup reg is -- it can't be anywhere else -- and you can access it, as DAA said, even without hands if it is properly adjusted.

As far as when you are likely to deal with an OOA diver . . . The only way one of my regular buddies is going to be out of gas is a blocked dip tube. But I DO travel, and I DO get off boats with groups of people I know essentially nothing about (although they are not my buddies) and there is a non-zero probability that one of them is not religiously checking their gas, and a far higher likelihood that NONE of them has had any training in gas management.