Primary donation

[LiteHedded]

My wife and I donate the secondary (octopus) and we breath the short hose primary. We do not donate the primary. It works better for us, is more streamlined and efficient with our BCs and it is the way the vast majority of divers are taught and conditioned and expect.

most divers are trained that way and it's totally fine for most dives.

The long hose Hog looping concept does not deploy as quickly as the standard octopus configuration and is prone to entanglement.

however this isn't true. ^

 

[DCBC]

This is where I shake my head. To me, you have put the rescuer at FAR more risk if you have to buddy-breathe than you have by simply donating the primary.

Here's hoping you never have a Secondary failure!

 

[mikemill]

The long hose Hog looping concept does not deploy as quickly as the standard octopus configuration

I didn't time myself with an octo configuration before switching but this last weekend one my buddies videoed an air share between myself and another buddy. I reviewed it and what I saw was this:
2 seconds while he was signaling with his light. Since we didn't talk about it topside underwater we had different expectations on the reaction to that signal. He then signaled using his had.
3 seconds from the time he used the hand signal to the regulator being in his mouth and breathing off of.

So 5 seconds from initial signal to breathing again. This was actually the first air share drill I've done since class so it isn't like I've practiced this time and time again.

As far as speed is concerned I have a hard time seeing an octo being faster. From signal it is: Hand to mouth which is a very ingrained motion (though training is needed to remember to grab the hose and not the reg but even that doesn't stop the process), duck head while extending arm and rotating wrist which is again a very natural motion.

Octo on the other hand requires location, removal from holder (which can be fast depending on the type but god forbid if it was clipped off), and then donation with what might not be a natural movement (depending on the placement).

 

[watboy]

My thoughts exactly. On this board, the donating of a known to be working regulator is frequently touted to be one of the big benefits of donating your primary. But you get the impression that the odds of your alternate failing are real in a traditional setup, yet negligible in a necklace setup. Put it another way, why is it not acceptable to put the OOA diver at risk of an alternate failure, but ok to put the donor at that risk? All I could think of was because the OOA diver is more stressed.

I'd like to try a long hose/necklace setup, but I'm not about to replace the excellant training i've received with knowledge from the internet. Thus I have been looking to take a GUE fundies or similar type course. But then I realized, if this new alternate air setup is something I would want to take a course to learn, I would want a regular dive buddy similarly trained. As I don't have a regular dive buddy, and given the state of buddy breathing knowledge in the general dive public, I'm not sure i'd attempt to buddy breath with someone I don't know. And if the reliability of my alternate is a real concern, that precludes me donating my primary.

Here's hoping you never have a Secondary failure!

 

[LiteHedded]

My thoughts exactly. On this board, the donating of a known to be working regulator is frequently touted to be one of the big benefits of donating your primary. But you get the impression that the odds of your alternate failing are real in a traditional setup, yet negligible in a necklace setup. Put it another way, why is it not acceptable to put the OOA diver at risk of an alternate failure, but ok to put the donor at that risk? All I could think of was because the OOA diver is more stressed.

I'd like to try a long hose/necklace setup, but I'm not about to replace the excellant training i've received with knowledge from the internet. Thus I have been looking to take a GUE fundies or similar type course. But then I realized, if this new alternate air setup is something I would want to take a course to learn, I would want a regular dive buddy similarly trained. As I don't have a regular dive buddy, and given the state of buddy breathing knowledge in the general dive public, I'm not sure i'd attempt to buddy breath with someone I don't know. And if the reliability of my alternate is a real concern, that precludes me donating my primary.

because the diver that is out of gas is already experiencing an emergency and needs gas NOW. giving that diver a dead regulator is asking for trouble as small issues can pile up and snowball into larger ones.
the donor is presumably in a calmer disposition and better able to handle an issue with the backup regulator.

 

[DCBC]

because the diver that is out of gas is already experiencing an emergency and needs gas NOW. giving that diver a dead regulator is asking for trouble as small issues can pile up and snowball into larger ones.
the donor is presumably in a calmer disposition and better able to handle an issue with the backup regulator.

So you donate the Primary and find that the Secondary fails. How will you handle the situation?

 

[Breatholder]

Seems to me that a simple purge air test to the octo above
water before the dive is always a good idea. I personally always
swith to my octo for 6 to 8 breaths on decent and again on
hang time on the accent. My primary reason is to make sure
its working properly,for MY use if needed. I agree with others
that think donating your primary is a careless idea. While buddy
breathing should take place in an emergeny situation for the
"other ooa diver" if that diver is in total panic and i have a
not likely octo failure...cold as it sounds...he;s on his own. It
would be stupidy to risk my saftey.

 

[Gerbs]

Thanks for your response Gerbs. I do however have to disagree with your noted statement. You are not "in the same situation you would be in before, had you given a non-functioning secondary." Lets examine the difference:

#1 In my scenario

1. You (the Rescuer) has air and does not need to get to the surface.
2. The OOA Diver finds a non-functioning Secondary.
3. The OOA Diver will either ask to buddy breath, or do a CESA.
4. The OOA Diver is unencumbered; he simply drops the non-functioning secondary and does a CESA.

Or Primary take, having being driven from borderline panic to full-on panic. When the lizard within you takes over, the nearest air source is going to be the goal. If "other diver" was not wired as the source, the OOA would have gone CESA already.

5. You would follow the OOA Diver to the surface and be there for support, as required.

Or the flailing diver will endanger you as well.

#2 In your scenario

1. The OOA Diver has air and does not need to get to the surface.
2. You (the Rescuer) finds a non-functioning Secondary.
3. You will either ask to buddy breath, or do a CESA.
4. If a CESA is required, you are encumbered.

I'll concede this. However, the likelihood is reduced due to the primary failure modes of secondaries (unable to find / release; damage through dragging) being taken care of and the initial OOA diver having the chance to recover to panic levels that still allow buddy breathing.

5. Trying to retrieve the only functioning regulator may result in both divers drowning.

If the diver is driven to full on panic from a OOA and being given a malfunctioning second, then this is more likely than if he's already on the road to having air again.

6. Alternatively, you could attempt to remove your kit and make a CESA yourself.
7. The OOA Diver may not be able to closely follow you to the surface (suited with a non-functioning BC and an operational one in his hands).


Personally, I'm going to pick Door #1.

Either door sucks. However, if stuff goes wrong, door 1 may turn out to be door 2 in the end. my personal opinion in my (somewhat limited) experience, though shared by many of considerably greater experience, is that by 1. reducing the panic factors on the initially suffering diver and 2. reducing the chances of malfunction of my secondary, I am ahead. I have may have more serious issues if enough stuff goes wrong, however, I have reduced the likelihood of this happening considerably.

Given the requirements for long hose (for easy air sharing) and stowage thereof, retention of unused regulator without dangling and easy deployment, findable by the other diver when I am horizontal, what would you suggest?

Gerbs

 

[paddler3d]

What do you do if you donate your primary, your secondary fails and the OOA diver doesn't know how to buddy breath?

What do you do if the Octo you donated, or the OOG diver took, doesn't work?

Now you have a stressed diver that needs air who isn't getting and is now really close to you.

They are going to take the primary from you and you're going to have to buddy breath anyway!

With your backup bunged around your neck, there is no excuse not to breath on it before the dive...it is there taunting your lips.

If you donate your primary and your secondary doesn't work, that sounds like Darwinian selection to me. Hopefully since you are not as panicked as the OOG diver, you'll have the presence of mind to trouble shoot the scenario or set up to buddy breath.

I would venture to say there have been many more instances of Octos failing vs. bunged 2nd's failing in OOG situations.

 

[LiteHedded]

So you donate the Primary and find that the Secondary fails. How will you handle the situation?

so your buddy has lost all of his gas and you're sharing and on the way to the surface and now your backup fails closed as well?
first of all this is just a bad day. but if this unlikely scenario ever developed we would buddy breathe the long hose the rest of the way to the surface.
when we got there I would take a good long look in the mirror and find out how i ended up with a buddy like this and let my gear get in this condition