...costs far too much money.
brandon
starving student and dive instructor
brandon
starving student and dive instructor
Professional Liability Insurance
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OP
Last time I checked with V&B, DM insurance for a full year was around $380.00. They have a slightly reduced rate if you only desire insurance to cover you while only working with an instructor. Never the less, this is getting expensive, I don't believe PADI is to blame. Insurance companies on the whole are the only ones getting rich in this game.
Well, when your premiums go up it is only natural to blame the insurance companies. But can one really state that indeed they are making money? It is impossible to say that your insurance carrier is making money on underwriting divers professional liability insurance, but it is a fact that the market for all professional liability coverages (i.e. doctors, lawyers, etc). has been bleeding money for the last few years for those who insure such risks.
Being that diver professional liability insurance is a subset of a larger portfolio of professional liability risks, and that larger portfolio has been "under water" (sorry for the pun):mean:
for quite a while, ALL professionals will be paying more to get the insurance industry back to making money on this line of business.
So who is getting rich on those premiums you pay? The lawyers.
The cost of insurance (especially professional liability) has gone up significantly due to the litigation-friendly legal environment in the U. S. Got a problem? See you in court. Like it or not, your ability to go to the yellow pages and get a lawyer to sue sombody for just about anything is part of our culture, and those costs are reflected in your insurance premiums.
If you lived in Europe or even Canada, your costs would be much lower, since the legal system is not so litigation-oriented.
To be fair, the sole cause of higher premiums is not just the legal system, but also the large losses caused by the meltdown of world financial markets, as well as the terroist attacks on 9-11; both of which combined have taken out over $ 150 Billion of capital from the insurance industry over the past 18 months. Less capital=higher prices, simply stated. (I could go on about the cost of asbestos litigation, which has driven some insurance companies out of business all together) but I think I have made my point).
At the end of the day, we are all having to pay for other losses out there, and prices will go up until the insurance companies get to to point of making to much money, which will introduce more capital into the industry, thereby driving down prices (someday soon? probably not for a couple of years at least).
Of course I am not defending the behavior of the insurance industry, but just wanting to shed light on the costs of insurance going up for everyone.
Scubamax
OP
I agree with most of what you are saying, the lawyers have a lot to do with the problem, however, how many insurance companies have you seen go under? Someone needs to put a stop to the foolish law suits, when you have a mind set that you can attempt to sue McDonalds because you ate like a pig there and got fat, you have a major problem.
Here's a question for you all....
Let's say I get my Divemaster rating. I go diving on a shipwreck with my scuba club on Lake Superior. I'm a divemaster, however, I am NOT acting as a DM on this dive. I'm just along for the ride.
Now lets say someone gets hurt on this particular dive - even though I was not acting as a DM on this dive, am I possibly liable for damages just because I am a DM?
Let's say I get my Divemaster rating. I go diving on a shipwreck with my scuba club on Lake Superior. I'm a divemaster, however, I am NOT acting as a DM on this dive. I'm just along for the ride.
Now lets say someone gets hurt on this particular dive - even though I was not acting as a DM on this dive, am I possibly liable for damages just because I am a DM?
Well, to name a few over the past couple of years:
Kemper (not quite gone under, but ceased writing business last month after serious financial difficulties due to asbestos lawsuits).
Reliance (liquidated)
Home (liquidated)
All three were major writers of professional liability insurance. Also, several syndicates within Lloyds of London have also gone under or have exited the business.
Also several companies have exited the professional liability business including CNA, St. Paul (for medical malpractice)(St.Paul was the largest insurer of medical malpractice in the US for years).
Several other insurance companies and reinsurers are also on the financial bubble and as such you will probably see another major insurer in the next 12 months go into liquidation.:wacko:
I agree that the foolish lawsuits are a major problem. There is a term used for this type of mentality: "Jackpot Justice".
Dive often and safely.
scubamax
JoshSchrank
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:doctor:
This is in reply to the DM who was wondering about his level of liability on a dive. The short answer is yes and no, you are and are not liable. It all depends on what took place prior to the start of the dive. If you had no previous contact with the person on the trip and the only thing that you had in common was proximity, then no, you are not liable for anything (which doesn't mean however, you won't be named in a lawsuit just because).
On the other hand, if you entered into any type of DM/student relationship with the other person, then yes, they could hold you liable. This relationship could be anything from giving advice on the best way to put on fins while on the boat, to what to look out for on the wreck, or even advice on how to clear your ears as you decend. Anything that puts you in a position of teacher/student, professional/amatuer, advisor/advisee makes you liable from the get go.
Josh
This is in reply to the DM who was wondering about his level of liability on a dive. The short answer is yes and no, you are and are not liable. It all depends on what took place prior to the start of the dive. If you had no previous contact with the person on the trip and the only thing that you had in common was proximity, then no, you are not liable for anything (which doesn't mean however, you won't be named in a lawsuit just because).
On the other hand, if you entered into any type of DM/student relationship with the other person, then yes, they could hold you liable. This relationship could be anything from giving advice on the best way to put on fins while on the boat, to what to look out for on the wreck, or even advice on how to clear your ears as you decend. Anything that puts you in a position of teacher/student, professional/amatuer, advisor/advisee makes you liable from the get go.
Josh
Gale & Smith does provide Insurance to PADI only Instructors/Dive Masters. They are approved with PADI. Here is the link to their site.
http://www.scubainsurance.net/
http://www.scubainsurance.net/
JoshSchrank
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Jeff,
That link is for Witherspoon Insurance, not Gail Smith.
Josh
That link is for Witherspoon Insurance, not Gail Smith.
Josh
scubasean
Contributor
I thought that what was said was that the lawyers are getting rich, not that the lawyers "have alot to do with the problem"....
It is the legislatures of the Federal gov't and the various states that provide the framework for the legal system. If you want to complain, do so only after you've exercised your right to vote for the folks that will change the laws to restrict paying huge sums of money for getting what you ordered, ....hot coffee at McDonalds.....
Just my .05
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