questionable instruction for kids

[Genesis]

Once a diver is certified they can dive with who they chose. However until they are certified It's up to me who they dive with.

Its up to THEM who they dive with. Always.

The arrogance of insisting otherwise is simply breathtaking, and is one of the reasons that I find this "business" disgusting.

You've got the entire concept here backwards. There is no scuba "license" (although one could reasonably conclude from your posts here that you'd love to see one mandated and enforced by the government at gunpoint!) You don't need to be certified - it may be smart, but its not required. The student is the one setting the requirements, since its their money. You don't like the conditions, you don't get their money. It is really that simple.

You have the right to refuse to form a contract under a set of conditions set by the prospective student. However, that does not mean "its up to you." Your right to make that decision ends with either acceptance or refusal of their request to train them, which can come with the requirement that someone they trust and want to be with for that experience dive with them during their checkout dives.

For those who I care about, if they request my presence as their buddy in the water the instructor in question will either accept that or another instructor will be selected.

That is their decision, not yours, and you can either respect it or not, at your option - but your "right" of control ends right there.

 

[Drew Sailbum]

The first and obvious concern is that the instructor seems to be planning dives that might cause some real logistical problems.

I can't fathom doing open water check out dives for a group of 6 to 8 of any age without some in-water assistance. Two at a time is about the limit with no DM. After all, who is going to look after the remaining students when I am focused on students doing ascent skills?

Genesis once bubbled...
that will not permit another certified diver in the water (who has some relationship to the person taking the class) for the certification dives (assuming that other person will pay the boat/park entry/whatever fees, and is not a student in any sense of the word - that is, they're not looking for a "scuba refresher") is a shop/instructor that I would not allow to teach my (insert relative or friend.)

No exceptions from where I sit on this.

There is no reason on God's Green Earth why I should not be able to be that person's dive buddy for those dives. As a certified diver I am per-se more qualified than another student that would otherwise be "assigned" as that person's buddy; ergo, I can only improve the safety of the person I am buddying with in that instance.

But not just any certified diver would do. As Mike already pointed out, additional certified divers "just going along" are to be treated as students for ratio purposes.

Our shop simply will not permit certified family members to go out to dive on training dives with students. If the site is suitable, we would be glad to have them along to snorkel while the boat captain keeps an eye out for them.

The very real concern is whether the student diver will focus on the instructor or their family member.

 

[Drew Sailbum]

Genesis once bubbled...
You've got the entire concept here backwards. There is no scuba "license" (although one could reasonably conclude from your posts here that you'd love to see one mandated and enforced by the government at gunpoint!) You don't need to be certified - it may be smart, but its not required.

Yet another arrogant viewpoint which fails to take into account dramatically varying laws in other diving locales.

It is required to be certified in certain jurisdictions around the world, and there are even government-issued sport diving licenses in some destinations.

 

[Genesis]

It is required to be certified in certain jurisdictions around the world, and there are even government-issued sport diving licenses in some destinations.

as I've made abundantly clear those who advocate such positions in the United States should, in my opinion, be subjected to keelhauling behind at least a 50' sportfish with the engines at full throttle.

If their remains can argue for such a jackbooted approach to diving in the US post that procedure, they're welcome to do so.

 

[scubasean]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Something I want to add to my last post...

I have had tag along fathers or husbands who haven't dived for 15 years and can't figure out why there are so many hoses now days. I had one students husband that we rescued twice and a third time he just got sick during a dive. I've never done so much paper work for one person in my life.

Once a diver is certified they can dive with who they chose. However until they are certified It's up to me who they dive with.

Oh and BTW, i have never had a tag along who was as good in the water as the students. Well, once. This past weekend I did a private nitrox class for a girl who's grandfather is one of my DM's and a cave diving buddy. I didn't have to charge him. LOL

I agree with all of this. What I would insist on though, is that a minimum of two adults be present with my 10 yr old.

No adult gets to be present alone with my kid unless I trust them through knowing them for awhile.

Its not so much that I'd want to dive with them, even though that would be fun also...Its not knowing why only one instructor, and only one adult...

 

[Drew Sailbum]

I've got no problem with parents (or anyone else for that matter) watching from the poolside. No problem with them coming out and snorkeling above the class during training dives. I've had a lot of those.

If they want, they can come to the classroom sessions and sit quietly too. (Though very few ever do) They are there as an observer, and I will gladly discuss any concerns after class.

I draw the line at having them underwater while the student is taking a test. After all, isn't that what open water certification dives are supposed to be? A test.

 

[diverbrian]

I am not the instructor, just a humble assistant, but I do PREFER parents poolside or on the shore to calm nervous children. I also draw the line in my preferences about having them in the water. I have not seen an instructor allow this either. The student (adult or child) needs to pay attention to the LDS staff for their own safety. I don't want to have to give instructions to someone only to turn to their guardian to see if it is alright. Under the water, non student family members can be a serious distraction, especially if they run into problems because they haven't been in the water a while.

Genesis, I assume that you aren't an instructor or that you don't help with classes. You might note that the people that know training standards and work with classes are in agreement about tag-alongs. The diver that scares me the most isn't the "I certified last week, so I need my hand held." It is the "I certified xx number of years ago, used to dive all the time, but haven't been in the water for xx years." Many of them need to get the rust off and scary things happen for a great number of them until they do. And Mike F. is right on about most diver's evaluation of their own skills, as well. Even if they are superb divers, they aren't trained in the way the instructor does things.

In any case, the student to instructor ratio in this case is a definite warning sign. If I had children, they wouldn't be going through this program either.

 

[Rick Murchison]

I encourage parents to attend classroom, pool and qual dives with their potential junior divers. Occasionally I have to remind them that the child must accomplish all required tasks on his/her own for certification, but on the whole it makes for sounder, safer dive teams at course completion.
Rick

 

[jbd]

ratio's has been well addressed here so I won't comment further about that. As for Jr certifications I think that its a good idea for the parents to do the cert dives with the child. Possibly even do the skills along with the child and be buddied with the child. This gives the instructor,IMHO, the ability to see how the two will function as a team. I agree very much with what Rick is saying about the child accomplishing all required tasks on their own for certification.

If the instructor doesn't like what he/she sees with the parent/child buddy team then withold certification until those issues can be adequately resolved to the instructors satisfaction.

 

[Genesis]

and as their "buddy" I can't help them with the test.

I can, however, be their dive buddy.

As their dive buddy I'm not expected to help them with the test (after all, were I a student, I would not be expected to do so either!) All I'm expected to do is be their dive buddy.

What's the problem with that?

You want me to sign 27 waivers disclaiming any professional (e.g. DM, etc) relationship between you and I? Cool - done.

So where's the problem?

No, I'm not an instructor. If you want to "qual" me as a diver (assuming you won't accept the printout from my dive computer showing my recent experience) that's cool - bring your tanks and gear and let's go crank up the boat for a dive or three. I'll even treat on the fuel - just check the attitude at the dock.