Questions concerning Backplates.

[rhwestfall]

I was sitiing next to a cute blonde about to splash at the Blue Hole in Belize when she showed me her inflator and asked:"Which button do I press to go up?".

and your answer was????

 

[boulderjohn]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Hi, folks,

Can we please do our best to avoid adding personal insults to our otherwise informative messages? I know that in a contentious thread it can be easy to get very testy. Veteran ScubaBoard readers have seen me get testy. It is all right to express frustration, but please do not let yourself resort to personal attack.

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[tridacna]

and your answer was????

...to head over to the DM and explain that said blonde may need some help. He coached her for about 10 mins and she did the dive and survived the experience.

 

[stuartv]

I don't know any instructor who would tell a student diver to inflate the BCD to ascend.

And if you read my posts, you may notice that I said I was taught to ascend vertically, slowly finning, and occasionally venting.

You may also notice that, in the specific post you quoted, I said I would use breath control, THEN, number 2, use the BC. To spell it out, that means if I want to go up, and inhaling a full breath doesn't get me moving up, then adding some gas to my BC. I never said anything about being at neutral buoyancy. Obviously, if I was neutral, then step 1, breath control, would be sufficient alone, and there would be no need to resort to option 2.

 

[cool_hardware52]

And if you read my posts, you may notice that I said I was taught to ascend vertically, slowly finning, and occasionally venting.

You may also notice that, in the specific post you quoted, I said I would use breath control, THEN, number 2, use the BC. To spell it out, that means if I want to go up, and inhaling a full breath doesn't get me moving up, then adding some gas to my BC. I never said anything about being at neutral buoyancy. Obviously, if I was neutral, then step 1, breath control, would be sufficient alone, and there would be no need to resort to option 2.

Why aren't you neutral?

Tobin

 

[Pullmyfinger]

Sorry Mitch but I have nothing against Tobin. My problems are with cheerleaders that say this brand is the greatest when in my experience is that it is not. I have/had wings from Halcyon, DSS, Oxycheq, Apeks, UTD, Hollis, Hog, Zeagle and DRIS. I believe I can make an educated opinion based on my experience.

Sure.
All fine and good. We all have our preferences after owning many brands.

Your relentless pursuit of Tobin is becoming legendary. Lol!
It's very funny......don't stop!!

It's as if........Tobin has a monkey on his back! Lol!

Cheers,
Mitch

 

[stuartv]

Why aren't you neutral?

Tobin

Let me save you the trouble. Because I'm "inexperienced". I realize that once I'm "experienced", I will never, under any circumstances, in any situation, ever be not neutral. In the meantime, I've got the skills I've got and I can only improve them so fast.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Let me save you the trouble. Because I'm "inexperienced". I realize that once I'm "experienced", I will never, under any circumstances, in any situation, ever be not neutral. In the meantime, I've got the skills I've got and I can only improve them so fast.

My point was if you aren't neutral you are already moving either up or down……….

I'd suggest learning to hover, before deciding you need to use your bc for every change in depth.

Tobin

---------- Post added April 1st, 2015 at 11:22 AM ----------

Let me save you the trouble. Because I'm "inexperienced". I realize that once I'm "experienced", I will never, under any circumstances, in any situation, ever be not neutral. In the meantime, I've got the skills I've got and I can only improve them so fast.

Stuart,

Honestly I have to wonder why you ask questions on this public forum. You have, IMO, a well earned reputation of asking questions, arguing with those that respond and then ignoring the advice provided. I don't pick fights with people trying to help me, even if I think they are wrong.

I'm not suggesting that all advice on this or any other public forum is correct, but when I'm seeking advice I'll consider the range of opinions and decide if any (or all) of the info fits my circumstance.

Very well qualified people here have provided you with a great deal of good advice. I have to wonder why they bother.

Tobin

 

[ams511]

I've welded up cracked cylinder heads that are still running, doesn't make it a good practice. Apparently I was exactly correct when I assumed you personally have never used aquaseal to repair a single layer wing.

I've tried it myself and found the failure rate unacceptable. I've also seen the repairs that others have attempted, some seemed ok and others failed.

I have only needed to repair 2 wings: a DSS LCD30 and a DRIS wing, both have inner bladders. While I am aware many people frown on patching wings and it is not unusual for people to do it successfully.

I guess I'll need to issue a Press release monthly on this very issue. I've answered this question many many times before.

No need to issue a press release, but now that you mention it your website could use an update. While it is attractive and better than most scuba-related sites, I am not sure why the photos and type need to be so small.

1) Our wings with 30 mil bladders and 1050 shells seldom suffer bladder problems, it happens but it's pretty rare.

I own two of your wings, and LCD30 and LCD20. Both were pre-owned. The LCD20 was never used and the LCD30 had a low number of dives on it. Both of which came with a thinner clear/opaque bladder. The same bladder the OP has. Both myself and the OP have asked what the bladder thickness but received no response. Looking at the NESS website he lists the thickness at 22 mil which I assume was the thickness of the old bladder. I believe you that the new bladder is 30 mil. However, I do see that other manufacturers are moving away from urethane bladders and using a similar material that Halcyon uses. While you mentioned in your testing it is inferior, Hog backs up their bladder (or at least they did) with a 5 year no pinch flat warranty. So it seems they are fairly confident about the puncture resistance of the material

2) Our quick removal system further reduces the incidence of bladder damage.

Not really. What reduces the incidence of bladder damage (according to you) is removing the plate from the wing for transport and storage. The quick-removal system does make it easier for the diver and facilitating removal; however it does not by and of itself reduce bladder damage.

3) Most divers and most dive shops don't work on any BC's if the manufacture is willing and able to do so at a fair price and fast turn around. We turn most repairs in 24 hours. We get pretty much equal numbers of zippered and zipperless wings returned for bladder replacement etc. Apparently most divers want a professional to install the bladder and test the entire assembly.

At $50 dollars your price is fair and your turnaround is great. However, when adding shipping costs and time (none of which is your fault) suddenly the repair costs $75-$80 and the turnaround time is 5 days. I realize the diver can pay for next day air but now the cost of the repair is $100 or so.

The LCD30 mentioned earlier had a pinch flat in it on the upper arc, completely accessible by the zipper. I sent it in to DSS for a repair. The person I spoke with on the telephone told me it would be patched for free (what great customer service I thought) if able, if not then the bladder would be replaced. I was told I would be called once the wing arrived and was tested and told what needs to be done and what the charges are. I was never contacted and when I called to inquire I was told the bladder was replaced. At first I was a bit miffed but then I thought $40 for a basically a new wing was a deal. When it arrived (stuffed in square box) I inflated it and it lost air quickly. I emailed DSS and the owner informed me that it could my inflator, my opv, the gaskets etc. Everything except a defective bladder or improper assembly. The owner then gave me some "tips" to how diagnose the problem (dunk it in the tub and check for bubbles), as if I didn't know how to do that.

I dunked it (no bubbles), replaced the elbow and OPV with components from a known good wing (still went flat), ordered the bladder flange tools and new gaskets from DGX and disassembled and reassembled the bladder (still went flat). For kicks I repaired the old bladder with tear-aid and Aquaseal and it held air. So I reinstalled the old bladder. I will be the first to admit that maybe I reinstalled the new bladder incorrectly as it was my first time but I thought I did it correctly. I followed instructions posted by OMS because DSS does not list this information.

So I put me in the category that I would have rather paid a "professional" to replace the bladder and test the entire assembly. However my experience is that my bladder was not installed by a professional nor was the entire assembly tested. If I need to go through all that aggravation to fix what a pro does I rather do it myself.

4) 360 Zippers make wings bulkier for travel.

I didn't realize that this was a criteria for a wing. However, there is not much of a difference in thickness between a Halcyon Eclipse wing (360 degree zipper) and an Apeks WTX-3 wing (completely bladderless design). What I have found to be more of a difference is the outer shell material. For example Oxycheq wings and the second generation Hollis LX wings with the stiff shell is much bulkier than other wings with a smoother shell. Although I don't have the DSS or Halcyon wing with me I don't remember much difference in the thickness of either wing. I could be wrong but I think the Halcyon may actually be a bit thinner.

5) If your primary concern is bladder access we offer a line of LCD wings with zippers.

As mentioned above I own two of the LCD products and they do allow full bladder access but you need to remove the OPV fitting and bladder flanges on the bottom to get access to the pontoon on that side. With a 360 degree wing chances are you are able find and patch the bladder without having to remove the OPV and flanges. BTW, on the DRIS wing I patched the bladder flanges were attached to the bladder, so once the elbow and OPV were removed the wing just came out of the shell, no tools required. A very elegant solution.

6) If you really believe that only a donut wing will meet your diving needs and you expect to beat on your gear there are other brands to choose from, have at it.

In the past you mentioned you sold "thousands" of wings and replaced/repaired "hundreds of bladders. I cannot get an exact percentage by dividing "hundreds" by "thousands" however I can infer that a significant portion of your wings are being returned for repairs. Is this because your clients "beat on" your gear?

You are right that there are plenty of other manufacturers that make quality products. I will try to make sure every diver looking for information on a BP/W knows this.

Perhaps you can bookmark this post for use when you feel the need to ask this same question *again*

Actually you never really answer the questions, but I am finding this tiresome.

BTW, we sell more Torus 26 wings than any other style, apparently our actual customers appreciate the design.

Is this what they want or is this what you tell you they want? Many more divers purchase jacket BCs, is that because they appreciate the design or because that is what the LDS sells them?

I guess I am not an actually customer even though I do own two complete sets of your gear along with some other small items like boots.

 

[cool_hardware52]

For kicks I repaired the old bladder with tear-aid and Aquaseal and it held air. So I reinstalled the old bladder. I will be the first to admit that maybe I reinstalled the new bladder incorrectly as it was my first time but I thought I did it correctly.

We have never patched bladders.

Did you ever return the replacement "defective bladder"?

I'd love to see it.

Tobin