Razor sidemount system and training options

[bamafan]

Edd is an excellent instructor. Just call him up and tell him you are thinking of buying a Stealth or Razor. After a few seconds you will know he doesn't like them. Edd doesn't dive aluminum tanks that I know of. He goes to the Bahamas a few times a year where they have steel tanks but I don't recall him going to Mexico and I have known him since '08 or '09. As with anything your instructor should be enthusiastic about what they are teaching and Edd is anything but enthusiastic about the Razor / Stealth. The Hollis SMS's work great with steels but suck with aluminum tanks. Now the Razor / Stealth work great with aluminum tanks but suck with heavy steel tanks and multiple stages. Both types if rigs are good for what they are designed to do. There is no magic one sidemount rig that works great in all conditions and with all tanks. Get a rig that will fit the type of tanks you will be diving the most and get an instructor who is enthusiastic about the rig they are teaching you in. I am sure there is a good Razor / Stealth type rig instructor somewhere in Florida who dives the rig almost exclusively but I have no idea who it would be as our conditions aren't very favorable to aluminum tanks. The only instructor I know in Florida that even sometimes dives a Stealth / Razor rig is Rob Neto. He goes to Mexico several times a year doing exploration on Cozumel. I keep saying this but it seems no one is listening. When in Rome do as the Romans.

 

[TracyN]

Edd isn't who I'd go to for Razor training. I'd go to Edd for SMS75/Halcyon Contour/SMS100/Hog SM training. I'd go to him for Sidemount training. I'm a huge fan of Edd....I'll put that right out there. I think he's one of the best instructors out there, period. Probably THE best for sidemount. Michal Turek (his head instructor) is fantastic as well. I like his teaching method and style. If you take his Sidemount course, you'll know what you need to know to make ANY sidemount rig work. Period. If you take someone else's class, you'll learn (at best) how to make THEIR sidemount rig work. Having dove with Edd and multiple Stealth/Razor instructors, I feel very confident stating that outright.

gearhound: If you don't think those tanks are too low, you should probably consider further training. Also, those are the ONE type of tanks that are almost an exception outside of Europe. The buoyant LP85s. The heavy LP85s won't work. The heavy 104s/108s won't work. Stages with those 85s will barely work (and not well). The razor does poorly with MOST steel tanks because it wasn't designed that way. Its entire geometry is built on the lightweight AL80s. It does a GREAT job of AL80s (almost as good as the Stealth). It simply doesn't do MOST steels well. The wing will come off of your back and turn into a gigantic beach ball. I've dove with a guy diving Worthington LP85s (not very heavy tanks) in a Razor. This guy was Steve-trained in his Razor. I could fit my fist between his back and his wing. He's completely stopped diving his Razor in favor of his SMS100....even in Abaco/Mexico/Dominican caves.

---------- Post added March 4th, 2015 at 04:38 PM ----------



One thing I'll say here is that with Edd's academic training, his in-water skills training, and fifteen minutes worth of YouTube videos and a few dives worth of tweaking....you can EASILY dive the Razor super well with Edd's training. His in-water skills are VERY demanding. You actually learn what it feels like to have everything "just right" and can easily transfer that to other rigs. I made a custom Razor-style harness for single-tank AL80 diving in a shorty in the Caribbean. EASY to set up. Would've been a pain without Edd's knowledge transfer....and I didn't even take his SM class (Did Cavern->Full+Deco with Michal, Apprentice with Edd...learned a ton).

Edd isn't the only sidemount instructor that is worth going to. There are many others out there.

 

[canadianoid]

I think it's been shown that you can dive steel tanks with the Razor.

Sure you can. You might even enjoy it if you like to be able to stare at the valves all the time or you're just not particular about things in general.. I'm hardly being ironic here. You really can dive like that.. Have you seen this? :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcJgJJrFz-4

Is the case closed now?

I personally prefer Brett Hemphill's sort of style, but you know.. whatever.

 

[gearhound]

I love Brett! He's done dives and is doing dives that I'll never do nor be able to do. Fantastic speaker too. Fantastic ambassador for the sport. BTW, he sees the Hollis rigs as one big line trap

. Not sure how true this is, but there's a few people on Facebook claiming that the diver in this picture was trained by Edd.
Now, I'm sure Edd doesn't dive this way, but since we're throwing out pics and videos...

My take:
The title of this thread asks about Razor training options.
The OP has stated that he won't be diving steels.
Florida is not the centre of the universe.
Not everyone in the world dives overfilled large steel tanks.
Edd is a well respected instructor. Some of his students follow the "there can only be one god, all else are false idols" dogma.
Steve Bogaerts is a well respected instructor. People from all over the world seek training from him. He has numerous videos out there that have inspired thousands of divers to get into sidemount (I make this assumption based on view totals). Of the scenarios that the OP presented, if you want to learn to dive the Razor, he's your best option. His classes are demanding and he presents you with the theory also.

 

[canadianoid]

Steve Bogaerts dives great and he designed the Razor. So it's safe to assume that what you see in the video is the best the Razor can do with steel tanks.. Take it or leave it, but that's how it is. And that is all I meant to address without any criticism - The razor + steel tanks..

 

[nakatomi]

BTW, he sees the Hollis rigs as one big line trap

I seriously doubt he would say that. A modified SMS100 is for all practical purposes pretty much identical to an Armadillo, give or take.

Not sure how true this is, but there's a few people on Facebook claiming that the diver in this picture was trained by Edd.
Now, I'm sure Edd doesn't dive this way, but since we're throwing out pics and videos...

About a year ago, I saw the diver pictured (J.L.) in a cave, teaching a class. He had his tanks sitting properly with very good trim and posture.
Whatever the reason, I couldn't care less, but he certainly did improve.

As to the Razor training options, if that's what the OP wants, he should try to get trained with a Razor instructor.
If I was driving a Porsche, I wouldn't take it to a GM dealership to get it serviced or fixed.

 

[darrenlowjq]

Part of the reason why it wasn't so clear cut to go to Steve was because I have limited time in the US and already have a Coz trip planned. I was thinking of hitting Bonaire and maybe even Roatan/Belize before I go home in June, but I'll try to see if I can work another Mexico trip in. Thanks for the advice guys!

 

[rddvet]

I don't get why the stealth gets lumped with the razor. I understand the stealth is bred from the same lineage as the razor but is a much different animal. I keep hearing the stealth/ razor can't handle steels and stages well. Bull****. I can dive the same tanks in the stealth as I can my edd-modded SMS. I will admit the SMS is an all around steel rig that pretty much anybody of any size and shape can dive steels well in. The stealth handles both al80s and steels perfectly well. It took slightly more adjustment time to dive the stealth with steels. And it's not because it doesn't work well, it's simply I wasn't used to it.

 

[rjack321]

Not that it matters to your needs, but you can easily dive steels with the Razor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0g8Hw2QaHU
If you have the opportunity, go directly to source for training. The quality of training will be much higher. Just be aware that Bogaerts books up quite quickly. If he doesn't get back to you right away, email Natalie at nat@gosidemount.com. She'll be able to get you sorted out.

If you think that is good steel tank position you are part of the problem. They are hanging down at 6 to 8 inches below the plane of your chest/belly. Just as I mentioned earlier. That's not where they would ride with loop bungies and a Dive rite JT, modified SMS100, or halcyon contour. It doesn't matter that much because you are in backmountable passage there. Sorry, but your video is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that the razor is a poor choice for steel tanks in FL. If you took that rig to Jug Hole or another true SM cave the wing would be scrapping the ceiling and the tanks grinding on the floor.

I think the razor is actually a better choice al80s in warm water so its up to what the OP wants to do.

 

[gearhound]

If you think that is good steel tank position you are part of the problem. They are hanging down at 6 to 8 inches below the plane of your chest/belly. Just as I mentioned earlier. That's not where they would ride with loop bungies and a Dive rite JT, modified SMS100, or halcyon contour. It doesn't matter that much because you are in backmountable passage there. Sorry, but your video is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that the razor is a poor choice for steel tanks in FL. If you took that rig to Jug Hole or another true SM cave the wing would be scrapping the ceiling and the tanks grinding on the floor.

I think the razor is actually a better choice al80s in warm water so its up to what the OP wants to do.

Seriously! I thought you were experts! If you don't like the tank position, you know that you can adjust it by moving the hip d-rings and adjusting the tension of the bungee. Heck, you could even put old school bungees on the Razor if you wanted. The SMS are not the only rigs that can be jigged with. Perhaps you should take a good sidemount course that teaches that.

Look, if you don't think its the right option for you, don't dive it. But to say that you "can't" dive steels with it is false. I understand it's not the best choice for diving those manly steel tanks with those manly over fills that only real divers with lots of hair on their chest can get, but your blanket statement is false. As for the rest of the world, it's a viable option. Last year, here in Canada, we couldn't even order new Worthingtons tanks. Fabers were the only ones our shop could get. Fabers are quite easy to dive, and for me, are a better choice for sidemount. Let me ask you this Rjack, what do you do with Fabers when they get light? Do you weigh the tail down? I'm genuinely asking this, because I don't know the procedure you follow. If it is weighing down the tail, then I'm definitely not a fan. But that's just me.

Also, there's many true sidemount holes where you have to go through sideways or you risk damaging the formations. Your set up is not ideal for that.