Regulator service: acceptable treatment?

[ams511]

Interesting comment. Just what do you mean by a nightmare customer? And what makes you think I meet your definition?

You know too much. The dive industry runs on lies and BS.

---------- Post added April 1st, 2014 at 03:19 AM ----------

"extra cleaning" is a complete farce. You *always* clean a regulator during service. "Extra" cleaning implies that they don't usually "fully" clean the regulator, which is (a) simply untrue and (b) just a vulgar manner of legal pick-pocketing.

Nice to see someone else agrees.

 

[The Chairman]

Interesting comment. Just what do you mean by a nightmare customer? And what makes you think I meet your definition?

I thought this was rather obvious. It's not that you know too much, but that you know enough to enable you to see only your perspective on things. It's not a balanced view and it goes against the average LDS's limited/biased perspective. Like the dentist who married the manicurist, you'd be fighting tooth and nail.

 

[Colliam7]

I am not a professional regulator technician. However, every book I ever read on the subject and every service manual I read (with the exception of Sherwood) basically lists cleaning as a SOP. Some of the posters in this thread have also mentioned cleaning as SOP. Do your customers know you do not clean the regulator? Yes an ultrasonic cleaner costs money and so do the chemicals but you are also charging money for the service. If you want to nickle and dime customers with cleaning charges and shop fees and whatever else that is your choice.

OK, reading Hickdive's post, and these comments, suggests to me that I may be creating a mis-impression. So, let me try and clarify, lest I appear to be the evil grinch. I think we are talking about two entirely different situations. And, I made an assumption in reading the OP that may have been wrong.

For annual regulator service, 'cleaning' should be included. In our case, we not only replace the parts but give the first stage and second stage a Simple Green cleaning. And, even do it in the US bath. That is a reasonable part of the process of performing an annual service. And, it isn't a big deal. But, what I understood from the OP is that he was charged a fee for 'extra cleaning', probably (again, my interpretation, and not his specific words) because of some sort of corrosion on his reg. And that is, to me a different issue. I will simply disagree with Rob's comment, that extra cleaning is a farce. It depends on the situation. As an example, last Fall I was presented with a regulator first stage, brought in for 'annual service'. The owner noted that it was 'freeflowing a bit', and the gas 'tasted a bit odd'. In disassembling it (which took some time, to avoid distorting the hex key slot on the balance plug - which appeared to be solidly corroded into place), I noted a considerable amount of (salt water) corrosion inside the body, and there appeared to be black mold present, particularly evident on the surfaces of the diaphragm. It required extensive brushing, three trips in the US bath before I was comfortable that it was clean, the use of GMP solution in addition to Simple Green, etc. For that service we charged extra. As I said earlier, that is an uncommon situation. It was a laborious process, involving a lot more than the usual dis-assermbly, 'cleaning', parts replacement and re-assembly. For whatever reason, that is how I interpreted what was done to the OP's reg. If a shop charges for the routine cleaning that is normally done as part of annual service, I would agree that doing so is out of line, UNLESS the shop uses a fee schedule which itemizes and individually charges for each step of the process. We don't, and apply a 'per stage' charge but others may take a different approach.

 

[vondo]

Secondly, I don't know how much a LP hose and mouthpiece cost but $40 seems high to me. Some shops may ask you to pay retail for parts but normally I would expect to be charged cost-price for parts. I think you may have paid a lot more than the retail price for parts, which I would find completely unacceptable. Ask the shop how much those parts cost if you buy them over the counter. That is the maximum price they should have charged you.

The mouthpiece was $14 and the QD hose $26 before taxes. The mouthpiece may have been a custom-order, which I would find really strange that they didn't contact me.

---------- Post added April 1st, 2014 at 08:37 AM ----------

But, what I understood from the OP is that he was charged an additional cleaning fee because of corrosion on his reg. And that is, to me a different issue. As an example, last Fall I was presented with a regulator first stage, that was brought in for annual service. The owner noted that it was 'freeflowing a bit', and the gas 'tasted a bit odd'. In disassembling it I noted a considerable amount of (salt water) corrosion inside the body, and there appeared to be black mold present, particularly evident on the surfaces of the diaphragm. It required extensive brushing, two trips in the US bath before I was comfortable that it was clean, the use of GMP solution in addition to Simple Green, etc. For that service we charged extra. As I said earlier, that is an uncommon situation. It was a laborious process, involving a lot more than the usual dis-assermbly, 'cleaning', parts replacement and re-assembly. For whatever reason, that is how I interpreted what was done to the OP's reg. If a shop charges for the routine cleaning that is normally done as part of annual service, I would agree that doing so is out of line, UNLESS the shop uses a fee schedule which itemizes and individually charges for each step of the process. We don't, and apply a 'per stage' charge but others may take a different approach.

I know very little about the inner workings of a first stage, but I doubt mine was that bad. I have a DIN reg, don't take the dust cap in the water, only leave it uncovered while swapping tanks, and never give the first stage more than a quick dunk. It had about 80 dives on it, I would guess. It was working fine except for a slight drop in IP (9.5 -> 8.5 bar). My buddies reg, used on ~25 dives, was charged the same fee. Granted, she may not be as careful to not get water in the first stage as she should when blow drying the (yoke) dust cap.

 

[redacted]

I thought this was rather obvious. It's not that you know too much, but that you know enough to enable you to see only your perspective on things. It's not a balanced view and it goes against the average LDS's limited/biased perspective. Like the dentist who married the manicurist, you'd be fighting tooth and nail.

Well, in most things I tend to be too open-minded. But, when it comes to LDSs, I guess I do go in with a chip on my shoulder. I had quite a few bad experiences in my first few years with a number of local shops so I see my extra caution as warranted. I'd like to believe there are some really good LDSs out there and I acknowledge that many LDSs do a pretty good job with most of their business.

To me they are a lot like pit bulls. Most of them are probably fairly good dogs if you like that type of dog. Some are probably everything you can expect in a good dog. But I am hesitant to stick out my hand (or wallet) to find out.

 

[ams511]

I thought this was rather obvious. It's not that you know too much, but that you know enough to enable you to see only your perspective on things. It's not a balanced view and it goes against the average LDS's limited/biased perspective. Like the dentist who married the manicurist, you'd be fighting tooth and nail.

What is his perspective? That he expects honesty and fairness?

 

[flots am]

"extra cleaning" is a complete farce. You *always* clean a regulator during service. "Extra" cleaning implies that they don't usually "fully" clean the regulator, which is (a) simply untrue and (b) just a vulgar manner of legal pick-pocketing.

Or that it was a corroded mess and took hours to get apart.

I've had the (honor?) of watching the service techs spend huge amounts of time trying to disassemble a customer's reg without destroying it, spending far more time than could ever be covered under the per-stage flat rate fee.

I have no idea who got charged for "extra cleaning" or what the condition actually was, but I've certainly seen cases where it would have been more than appropriate.

flots

 

[Jim Lapenta]

The mouthpiece was $14 and the QD hose $26 before taxes. The mouthpiece may have been a custom-order, which I would find really strange that they didn't contact me.

---------- Post added April 1st, 2014 at 08:37 AM ----------



I know very little about the inner workings of a first stage, but I doubt mine was that bad. I have a DIN reg, don't take the dust cap in the water, only leave it uncovered while swapping tanks, and never give the first stage more than a quick dunk. It had about 80 dives on it, I would guess. It was working fine except for a slight drop in IP (9.5 -> 8.5 bar). My buddies reg, used on ~25 dives, was charged the same fee. Granted, she may not be as careful to not get water in the first stage as she should when blow drying the (yoke) dust cap.

First of all tell her never to blow dry the yoke dust cap. Use a rag, t shirt, towel, etc. Good way to blow water into the 1st stage plus it's annoying as hell to other divers.

I don't know what kind of mouthpiece they put on but I only carry factory ones and they are 5.00 each when I do have to replace one. The zip tie comes with a rebuild kit but if it does not need rebuilt and I have to supply one it's $100.00 plus labor for the zip tie. (APRIL FOOLS! {it's really free})

Depending on the length a LP inflator hose is going to run 20.00-22.00 for a "standard" length (say 18 -22 inches).

In all fairness if I get one in that is a really corroded mess then it's going to cost as I charge for labor by the hour. But I also take pictures of these abominations to document how bad it was just in case the customer wants to see. And to use as lecture aids in gear maintenance and repair classes.

I have one top end from an Edge reg that an owner left on and never bothered to rinse and clean. I have it because he tried to get the enviroseal cap off with a vice and channel locks. Then he took a pipe wrench to it. It's still welded on there. Good illustration as to why you should follow my advice when I tell you how to rinse a first and take care of the threads on the environmental seal so it does not get to that point.

 

[vondo]

First of all tell her never to blow dry the yoke dust cap. Use a rag, t shirt, towel, etc. Good way to blow water into the 1st stage plus it's annoying as hell to other divers.

I probably did at one point, but there are only so many "suggestions" one can make at a time and preserve a friendship.

But I also take pictures of these abominations to document how bad it was just in case the customer wants to see.

I'm the kind of customer that would really like to see this.

---------- Post added April 1st, 2014 at 03:37 PM ----------

"extra cleaning" is a complete farce.

From looking at my invoice and PMing with Jim, I realize three things:

1) Rebuilding a first stage takes longer than rebuilding a second.
2) The basic charge from the LDS is the same for 1st and 2nd
3) The total labor charge for the 1st, with the extra cleaning, comes out to about the same as Jim's guidance.

So I think this is basically a non-issue.

 

[halocline]

and never give the first stage more than a quick dunk. It had about 80 dives on it, I would guess. It was working fine except for a slight drop in IP (9.5 -> 8.5 bar).

That could certainly cause corrosion in the ambient chamber. It's best to soak your first stage in clean fresh water for a good long time after a salt water dive. Just make sure that your DIN cap is screwed in place. Soaking allows the salt water hidden in exposed threads (meaning threads that are not protected by an o-ring) to dilute as the salt migrates into the fresh water bath.

Still, unless the reg was corroded enough to make it difficult to take apart, it doesn't make any sense to charge extra for 'cleaning'.