Restructuring Certifications

[Blox]

Then by this measure it is also a lazy, uncaring instructor who fails a student by not seeking new ways to help them achieve and succeed. Maybe I'm old school but I would much rather seek ways to help a diver candidate achieve than to fail them.
I am curious to learn from those who have seen a student or heard of a student failing OW, what was/were the reason(s)?

I've seen a PADI instructor "fail" a student for OW certification.
The instructor(s) spent 2 DAYS with the student in the pool to get the basic skills done. During the 4 checkout dives it turned out that the student was (mentally) nowhere near ready to go diving on his own with just another certified diver (and this is basically what the OW cert permits you to do). The instructor felt that he could not grant the certification in good faith, talked to the student and they agreed that the student would not get the OW cert, but instead would get the PADI Scuba Diver cert, so that the student could get credit for work done if the student desired to continue his training and eventually get OW certified or at least go diving under supervision of a qualified instructor. You may see this as the instructor having given up, but this is not the case - the instructor showed patience beyond belief with that student and the student , being on vacation, ran out of time to complete the course here.

 

[WaterDawg]

Durian,
I agree w/ what you said except for the part about Basic Rescue turning into "rescue" in a certain # of dives. Unless of coourse your actually out rescuing folks during thoses dives.

I like the SSi thing about having to have 25 dives. And I love the NAUI thing f doing rescues at every lvl, inclluding o/w!

What you want is out there its just that the majority of the time its not found in in the Big "P"

 

[garyfotodiver]

Then by this measure it is also a lazy, uncaring instructor who fails a student by not seeking new ways to help them achieve and succeed. Maybe I'm old school but I would much rather seek ways to help a diver candidate achieve than to fail them.
I am curious to learn from those who have seen a student or heard of a student failing OW, what was/were the reason(s)?

My daughter failed her written exam. We reviewed, and she passed on her second try. From speaking to her check-out dive instructors, I learned she had trouble with some skills. I think she bolted to the surface because she couldn't clear her ears. They worked with her and she got through her issues. Nevertheless, she made some tough dives for a novice, two days after a tropical storm passed through S. Florida.

During the check-out dives, I was (properly) kept from helping her.

 

[TSandM]

If you make it impossible for someone to do AOW before they have completed a certain number of post-certification dives, what do you do with the person who gets passed out of OW without the skills to DO those dives (me)? I went directly into AOW, because I felt I was not competent to dive without the close supervision of a professional, and doing AOW allowed me to pay an instructor to be with me for those five dives. Even AFTER those five dives, I was afraid to dive with someone who was not at least rescue certified. I just didn't feel competent or safe at all. Did I realize that, at the end of AOW, I was no "advanced" diver? Of course. But I needed those dives. I needed more than that, but I was lucky enough after that to find mentors.

Until or unless OW classes produce divers who are, actually, experienced enough to go dive by themselves, there is going to have to be something following hard on the heels of OW for those who do not have the opportunity to practice diving where it is easy. Drysuit diving in cold pea soup is NOT the place for two brand new, inexperienced and anxious divers to be together, at least IMHO.

 

[Bruciebabe]

Just getting the number of dives up is not enough. It is common practice for people trying to get up the PADI system fast to do 20 minute 5 metre dives. Just wade in and sit on the bottom, wade out and log it. IANTD courses work on minimum bottom time as well as completing the skills. My recent Inro Cave course dives were each around 100 minutes.
I did my IDC with 2 guys who did consecutive courses. Nothing to instructor in 100 dives. Actually they were quite good at teaching the PADI sylabus and passed their IE with ease. But they were not exactly experienced.
On a recent liveaboard I was buddied with a girl who wasn't a very good diver. She was a divemaster with less than 100 dives. Her buoyancy was off, she cycle kicked, used her hands for propulsion and was nervous of the water. Yet someone had signed her off as being qualified to lead dives.
The old British BSAC system had almost endless pool training to build skills to pretty much rescue level before going in open water. Under competetive pressure they now have a system similar to PADI but a lot of the old ethos continues at club level which is not a bad thing for British diving. The BSAC First Class Diver qualification remains as the pinnacle of diving skill.
One of the problems with diving is that most people who get certified don't dive. We have this massive sausage factory creating cards that don't get used. Perhaps a part of this is that the people who have those cards don't feel competent enough and maybe if the AOW and Advanced were upgraded to deliver more competent divers we wouldn't have the immense drop out rate.
GUE and the DIR-F are the best thing to happen to diving for years. Here is a course that is an achievement to pass. Something that stands as a benchmark so people realise that there are skill levels above being PADI certified. A course whose graduates go out and evangelise better diving standards. If someone had this and BSAC First Class you would know that they were a pretty excellent diver.

 

[garyfotodiver]

Until or unless OW classes produce divers who are, actually, experienced enough to go dive by themselves, there is going to have to be something following hard on the heels of OW for those who do not have the opportunity to practice diving where it is easy. Drysuit diving in cold pea soup is NOT the place for two brand new, inexperienced and anxious divers to be together, at least IMHO.

Now you are speaking to the quality of initial training which, in my opinion, has deteriorated from the standards when I first certified in 1970. Perhaps the dive industry ought to go back to quality instead of quantity of divers trained.

There is no law that says one must jump into the most difficult types of diving immediately after certifying. This is akin to getting a driver's license and purchasing a Porsche Carerra 4. Most of us would not be ready to drive the Porsche to it's capacity, even though we are "legally" able to do so.

Gain experience, lose some of the anxiety, have fun. The first summer of my diving, I made perhaps a dozen dives in Shark River Inlet, NJ. I learned to be comfortable under the water, alone & at night. It has stood me well all these years. To this day, my first dive after being out of the water for a while is a skills practice dive. I'm not afraid to ask for assistance from the DM. I call a dive when it is appropriate. There is always another day to get wet.

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

I'm an SSI instructor and while I have my personal issues with SSI one of the things I approve of is their requirement that you must log 24 dives plus do 4 specialities to earn the advanced card.

You still may not be advanced but you're probably ahead of the game is someone has only done dives with an instructor right?

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

Then by this measure it is also a lazy, uncaring instructor who fails a student by not seeking new ways to help them achieve and succeed. Maybe I'm old school but I would much rather seek ways to help a diver candidate achieve than to fail them.
I am curious to learn from those who have seen a student or heard of a student failing OW, what was/were the reason(s)?

I will fail a student but it isn't a permanent failure. In fact it's just a postponing of passing. The main reason to not pass is a lack of comfort in the pool. Once in a great while a student will do great in the pool and exhibit total lack of comfort in the open water.

then again another reason is a student quitting which happens once in a blue moon.

 

[Orlando Eric]

"Old School." Helping students along who lack skills and confidence is not "OLD SCHOOL." There are those here who remember the paramilitary dive instruction that was set up to wash out dive students.

Hand holding and mandatory passing of students is "New school."

I think it is great to get on a boat with such varied people these days. I do believe as does everyone else it seems that a basic skills test needs to be harder and required.

My example is a Instructor diving a basic dive in calm seas. The Instructor comes up with the alum tank floating behind and the B/C underinflated, struggling to stay afloat and when the others on the boat tried to point this out they were met with "Huh? what?" Even after a comment was made.. 'Inflate your BC." The instructor made it to the ladder climbed up and the crew grabbed the tank. The instructor looked behind her to see the tank dangling and got that .. "Hmm that is strange" look on her face. Myself and several others put our gear back in the bags, we had grabbed up in thoughts of going over the rail if she bobbed up and down very many more times.

Divers over that 100 dive mark will notice if the tank is four inches this way or that. Let alone a tank that is being pulled behind like a beer can on wedding day.

The instructor went from Zero to Hero straight on through with no stops. There should be stricter standards and dive time minimums.

 

[10tigers]

hey-

Just my personally opinion ,but I put all the burden of being an able bodied diver on myself. Sure having a lousy instructor won't help, but demand satisfaction. Nobody should go blindly into a situation because a "professional" is there to take care of you or hold your hand. If he/she isn;t doing what you feel is right, or unsafe, or not giving you enough answers, you need to ask. Stop. Tell them you need clarification, etc. Educate yourself before even walking in the door. Be a good swimmer before you start trying to spend an hour underwater. Have at least a base level of personal confidence and clarity to handle difficult situations These skills are not bypoducts of your scuba education, it's something that should have been brought with you to class.
Scuba is difficult but not rocket science.

As far as logging dives before going into AOW, while it won't hurt it shouldn;t be a requirement. Why log dives and wait to get additional education that will help your diving, increase your safety, become a better buddy, and increase your overall confidence under the supervision of a pro? I think that's crazy logic. I went straight through to AOW when I first went SCUBA and think it's the only way to go if you want to go beyond the very basic of basics.

While an advanced cert doesn't make you and experienced/advanced diver, it's good to have if you want to become one.

All in all what makes you a good diver is you.