Restructuring Certifications

[freediver]

"Old School." Helping students along who lack skills and confidence is not "OLD SCHOOL." I suppose I am old school in the sense of my teaching philosophy and method. I don't think someone can be taught but rather you can help them discover the skills and knowledge they are looking for. Every student, within reason, deserves a fair chance to achieve and succeed at this recreational activity that you also enjoy so much.There are those here who remember the paramilitary dive instruction that was set up to wash out dive students.
hooyah!
Hand holding and mandatory passing of students is "New school." I would certainly say, along with many, that the pressure a dive store and instructor faces to pass a student should not be at the expense of placing incompetent divers in the water and that is not what I am advocating.
I think it is great to get on a boat with such varied people these days. I do believe as does everyone else it seems that a basic skills test needs to be harder and required.
No, don't make the tests more difficult, make the teaching more thorough!

.

..

 

[PerroneFord]

10tigers,

I don't think there is any argument against taking instruction to become a better diver under the supervision of a pro. The problem lies in the specific application of those skills. It's like taking a class in school. If I take calculus in school and get an "A" or I get a "C", it really doesn't determine whether or not I am going to be able problem solve when I get that engineering job at the firm. Similarly, just because I can follow my instructor to 150ft, and do a decompression dive, it doesn't mean that I am going to be able to save my own life when everything goes wrong 6 months later on a dark, cold dive in the northeast. Practical application comes only through experience.

Getting back to something TSandM said:

If you make it impossible for someone to do AOW before they have completed a certain number of post-certification dives, what do you do with the person who gets passed out of OW without the skills to DO those dives (me)?

There is nothing wrong with you asking an instructor to assist you for a weekend outside of a classroom. There doesn't have to be a certification involved. This is basic mentoring and it's something I am trying to do with my diving. I think it's more prevalent in technical diving, but it certainly can be done in recreational diving too. What's wrong with asking that instructor with 1000 dives, "Hey Bob, I'm not really solid on the water. Can you do a few dives with me next weekend and check me out? I'll pay for gas and lunch, and drop a few bucks in your pocket if you can help me."

What ever happened to simply trying to become BETTER at something without having to get a certification card? I've been away from diving in open water for 11 years. I would no sooner sign up for AOW right now than try to go to the moon. Instead, I am getting in the pool 3 times a week working my skills on my own until I feel more comfortable. I will ask some of my more experienced friends to come check me out to see if I'm doing things well, and then I'll hit the open water again.

I think the crux of this discussion comes down to whether it is ultimately the responsibility of the Agency, the instructor, or the student, to demand proficiency before being certified to some level. Truthfully, I feel it's the responsibility of all three. However, I feel it's the agency that sets the overall standard and gives teeth to the instuctor's ability to say, "According to my agency's guidelines, you are not yet prepared for this level of diving. And I think the instructor needs to be able to say that BEFORE or AFTER the class. If a student signs up for intro to cave, yet cannot control their buoyancy or trim, they do not even need to be offered the class. By the same token, if a student is unaware (or even if they are) that their skills are not adequate to go forward, they need to be told that, and told what is lacking.

I think one of the reasons the DIRF class gets *SO* much mileage here on SB, is because it is a stop-gap class designed to bridge the gulf between OW/AOW and technical diving. I don't know if there is a card for passing the class, but it shouldn't matter. It is strictly about becoming a better diver. I would like to see more agencies adopt this type of "workshop" but I think they fear it because it might well point out that they are not getting quality students through OW and AOW.

And let's face facts. Most divers don't really care that they are not proficient. They just want to go diving from time to time. We are the fervent 1% here on this board and are not really representative of the sport as a whole.

Just the way I see it...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Then by this measure it is also a lazy, uncaring instructor who fails a student by not seeking new ways to help them achieve and succeed. Maybe I'm old school but I would much rather seek ways to help a diver candidate achieve than to fail them.
I am curious to learn from those who have seen a student or heard of a student failing OW, what was/were the reason(s)?

I have failed only one OW student ... and that was because he couldn't even come close to meeting the swimming requirement. He was totally out of his comfort zone in the water.

I told him to go take swimming lessons and contact me when he felt he would be able to meet the OW swimming prerequisite. I would then be happy to schedule him into the next available class and let him pick up where we left off.

I have had students fail to meet my standards for proficiency in certain skills, but offered to work with them until they could meet the standard. So far they have all accepted the offer and eventually passed the class.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[10tigers]

PerroneFord

I think we are on the same wavelengh. But wouldn't you want to have a least experienced a 150ft dive with an instructor before heading out on a cold day in the northeast?
Sure just taking a calculus course will not prepare you for the job at the engineering firm. But just imaging trying to do your job without taking the class, let alone getting the job in the first place.

Nothing is better than hands on experience in life. No matter which way you slice it.

I think people get caught up with the "card" on both sides of the coin. It's not meant to be a badge to show your are AOW. It says you trained this kind of procedures in so and so envirnment. That's all.

A wise man once said. Don't look at the finger that point's to the moon or else you'll miss all the heavenly glory.
Finger being the card.
Wise man being Bruce Lee but he stole it from Daoist Philosophy.

I'm going to take my Rescue diver this month. I think the instruction will be invaluable. Do I think I will be a better diver? Hell yes. Do I think I am a descue diver? Hell no. But I am sure as hell better prepared to be one if the needs arise.

 

[PerroneFord]

Agreed 10tigers,

It most certainly would be good to have experienced most things with an instructor prior to having to do them yourself. I am not saying it isn't. What I am saying, is that if you are an AOW diver looking to take an Adv. Nitrox class, it would be prudent to be able to manage buoyancy well. Not just well enough to pass AOW, but well enough so that you could be successful at the class you're about to take. That will only come with time and practice. And no instructor or agency is at fault if you can't perform that skill at the level required. At least that is MY opinion.

Nice quote on the Bruce Lee by the way. I study Daoism and Bushido. And am about halfway through the Hagakure.

 

[10tigers]

Agreed 10tigers,


Nice quote on the Bruce Lee by the way. I study Daoism and Bushido. And am about halfway through the Hagakure.

Sweet
started training Aikido at age 8. Have been training Hung-gar Southern Shaolin Kung-** and Tai-chi for the past 8 years.
I can;t imaging life without that training. It's made me a better person. And made living life a much more fullfilling experience for me.
I think the stuff I've learned from Kung-**, my mental state, and abilty to deal with stressful situations have all been brought to my SCUBA.
BTW= Kung-** translates from chinese as "Skill developed through dilligent practice"
We all should stive for better SCUBA-**.

On your next dive trip, if you see someone who looks like he's doing Tai-ch at the safety stop, its probably me.

 

[10tigers]

Sweet
started training Aikido at age 8. Have been training Hung-gar Southern Shaolin Kung-** and Tai-chi for the past 8 years.
I can;t imaging life without that training. It's made me a better person. And made living life a much more fullfilling experience for me.
I think the stuff I've learned from Kung-**, my mental state, and abilty to deal with stressful situations have all been brought to my SCUBA.
BTW= Kung-** translates from chinese as "Skill developed through dilligent practice"
We all should stive for better SCUBA-**.

On your next dive trip, if you see someone who looks like he's doing Tai-ch at the safety stop, its probably me.

BTW
** = f u
I don;t know why it was edited that way.
F U? Ohhh... I get it.

 

[sharky60]

...
The rest remains the same. I just think that there needs to be more emphasis on experience. When I got my AOW, I was hardly an advanced diver, and I still am not that.

I agree, there does need to be more emphasis on experience. All the cert agencies nowdays are pushing people to get more and more cards. I know people that have very little actual diving experience and they are considered "Dive Masters" because they have a card that says they are. They may have never dove in the ocean, in limited visabililty, under extream current conditions or any number of situations that one should have to really make them a Dive Master.

 

[Mr. Brown/Scuba]

1. if you have the money you can get any c-card all the way up to and including Instructor.......the shops and the instructors that let this happen are after one thing..... MONEY

 

[MikeFerrara]

If you go to a furnature store they'll probably try to sell you a chair. It's not because you really need a chair, it's because that's what they do. If you go into a dive shop thay may try to sell you a class even if what you really need is a chair. If what you really want is a certification then they have it easy because they don't even have to give you much of a class.