Right or Wrong?

[theskull]

Even with cave-trained buddies?

Especially with cave trained buddies. A cave trained diver without the right attitude is like a 4-wheel drive driver without the right attitude.

4-wheel drive doesn't prevent you from getting stuck in the snow and ice, it just gets you a lot deeper into trouble before you get stuck!!

theskull

 

[vjongene]

Question:

Was the instructor correct to deny the cave diver a wreck penetration dive based on his lack of wreck diving certification yet knowing he was a cave diver?

On Bikini Atoll, the instructors went on the assumption that cave divers had skills equivalent or better than wreck divers, and took them on penetration dives after a checkout.

 

[Tom Smedley]

The dive operators in Truk that I have used never questioned whether one was wreck certified or not. I suspicion that this is either a hypothetical question or a situation where superego took effect.

Actually I have never been to Truk where a local instructor went on the boat with me. I have though been on a boat where the divemaster/diveguide showed me around the wrecks and I saw much more that I would if I had done it on my own. I am grateful to those guys who were willing to do that.

Your story seems like a group of rusties went on a trip with a caver and he was outnumbered in the ego butting contest. If I use my VISA certification to fly half way around the world and another diver (instructor whatever) who used the same VISA certification as me tries to boss me that is wrong R-O-N-G wrong.

If - however - I signed up to travel with these grunts - I deserve what I got.

 

[simbrooks]

What relationship does the instuctor have with the boat Captain? Is he just along for a ride like everyone else or is he "the man(or woman)" on the boat?

If he has no authority on the boat then he is overstepping his bounds. If he is in charge then he has complete authority.

This is the only thing that matters, otherwise every other decision is a peronal responsibility call if the capt doesnt mind it. Of course the diver isnt fully trained in wreck diving, however he has probably dove with his brother before, has some knowledge of wreck diving and of course diving in overheads and by the sound of it, there are 3 wreck divers plus the instructor (wreck trained or just pulling "rank"?) plus the cave diver, 5 is a BIG team! Its also a team call as to whether they want this diver along, if it were just this diver and the wreck diving brother that would be their call, but there are more folks involved and of course all the political issues on the boat. Overall is it right or wrong, it might not be 100% right for the cave diver to go in, but its a personal responsibility thing once you are in the water.

BTW, even with my limited cave training i wouldnt do this dive, i dont want to mess with wrecks right now and do feel its a slightly different skill set, but not incredibly so - happier to be in a cave than in a rust bucket

 

[voop]

Tuff one.....

First, I do not know the wreck in question, so this is a general consideration.

If I, as guide, was to lead a dive into something -- be that cavern/cave/wreck -- I would want to ensure that the divers had the appropriate skills. Since this is not an instructional situation (and since I am *not* a cavern/cave/wreck instructor), we'd essentially be diving as a team -- and in these environments, you have to feel confident about your team. So if there was a diver, whom I didn't feel good about and whom I did not feel would have the appropriate skillset for the team, I would not make the dive with him, regardless of who he is or what plastic he carries. It's as simple as that.

Was the guide right in refusing the cave-diver? I dunno. I'd have to go dive the wreck and go dive with the cave-diver to answer that. I've seen some cavers, who'd possess worse bouyancy-skills than my OW-students, so I almost never take a card as "final proof" of anything. (Although the bulk of cavers are "spot on") And I have seen some wrecks, which hardly qualify as "overheads" too.

 

[gehadoski]

I believe that VOOP is right the important think that matters is the experience and not the c-card that the person carries. I am on my DM course, by checking that logbook and making the check dives are the things that make me take the decsion about who is capable to do what. The certification is about how can do what. For example Lets take an example lets consider that there is a group going on a diving trip. They want to dive on a wreck in the red sea called Rossali Molare. This wreck is about 45m deep. All the group are certified as wreck divers. on the check dive I noticed that 2 of them didn't dive for a long time, so they have very high air consumption. by there air consumption they couldn't make that dive. So I will give them my advice and recommendations, and I will try to give them alternatives (other wrecks, or other diving spots). what I want to say that this is about experience and not about certifications.

 

[MikeFerrara]

What kind of wreck is it? What kind of charter is it? I guess if my cave card and trimix card didn't get me on the dive I could always show my PADI wreck card if that makes them feel better. LOL

 

[gehadoski]

It is british warship, It had been distroyed by germany plans in the WWII. It is one of the most wonderful wreck dives in the Red Sea. I say go for it you will like it. It sank upright. You will like it, Keep its name in your mind (Rosalie Mollre). I am sure you are going to like it.

 

[String]

"wreck" certification sounds like more agency pointless mone grabbing specialities.

If the diver has qualifications and experience for the type of dive then the fact they havent paid A.N.Other agency for a pointless "speciality" shouldnt come into it.

There are FAR too many specialities out there and its growing out of control.

 

[chickdiver]

I was in Truk this past summer- aboard Odyssey. My experience is that once they see a cert card of any kind, the ops don't give a crap WHAT you do. In point of fact, there were several members of our group with absolutely no overhead training- these people were not only told where to look for specific items, but what areas were easily penetrable, etc. in each and every dive breifing- on single tanks, no less. They were also encouraged to do dives I felt were patently dangerous for other reasons, but that is another story.

Basic gist- Truk is wide open for whatever you want to do, regardles of training type and certification.