Right or Wrong?

[mdsd]

Who's the customer?
Where's his dive log?
The rest is common sense.
I like the idea of a checkout dive mentioned earlier as a form of diplomacy.

 

[Mako Mark]

Basic gist- Truk is wide open for whatever you want to do, regardles of training type and certification.

so you are saying that this was a badly disguised troll??

I find it hard to believe that this situation would occur. I think that the dive op would at best do a check out dive with both the wresk diver and the cave diver and after evaluating skills and attitude would allow thm both to penetrate the wreck. Probably they wouldnt even do this though, they would probably just let them both enter the wreck.

 

[chickdiver]

so you are saying that this was a badly disguised troll??

I find it hard to believe that this situation would occur. I think that the dive op would at best do a check out dive with both the wresk diver and the cave diver and after evaluating skills and attitude would allow thm both to penetrate the wreck. Probably they wouldnt even do this though, they would probably just let them both enter the wreck.

No, I'm not saying anything of the kind. I was simply relating my experiences this past summer, and my impression of the way things are done there.

As you may have gathered from my tone, I was less than impressed with what I saw there, and the standard methos of conducting some dives- at least aboard Odyssey.

 

[GDI]

I have added the word hypothetical to the original post, I'm sorry that some of you may have taken this as a real occurence. But please do consider it and this:

Many of you have picked up on the certification and skill base point of the cave diver. Certainly a certified caver would have the skill set to dive most wrecks, but not all wrecks.

Additional Questions:

2.From the instructors point of view it is not a training dive, he is conducting a tour for the charter boat. What about his liability?

And since many of you feel that a cavern certification would give you the skill set to dive a wreck, at least some wrecks

3.Do you think it would be ok to take a wreck diver cavern diving?


My answers/thoughts to some of my own questions here:

From the instructor's point of view as part of a charter crew, the cave diver does not hold a wreck card and therefore is not certified to penetrate wrecks. The instructors liability may not provide coverage should something go wrong involving the cave diver. Considering this the instructor is correct in not wanting the cave diver to penetrate the wreck and it is his call

Many of you see the cave diver as being at the top of the diving pinacle, does this not suggest that at times we have a set of double standards in regards to limitations. Certainly based on this mindset a Certified Advanced Wreck Diver such as the card that TDI offers would have the skills capable to penetrate a cave and should be allowed to do so.

This would not be likely to happen so why should it happen the other way?

The same can be said for a cavern diver going on a simple wreck dive, why cannot the basic wreck diver dive a cavern? Ego should never enter the water.

 

[TwoTanks]

At the end of the day the diver is a certified diver. If he makes the call to go were he is not certified then that is his call. I was taught in my DM training that a certified diver is responsible for themselves, all we can do as DM's/Instructors is offer the advice and strong recommendations.

However to stop a Cave certified diver entering a wreck is IMHO a little overboard. Cave divers generally have exceptional diving skills and are educated enough to know about the hazards involved in Wreck diving. Its just common sense. The instructor could have even taken the guy for a checkout dive to make sure of his skills before letting him participate, or checked his log book to gain inside knowledge of the guys experience. That is what i would have done. I mean who goes to Truk to dive the outside of wrecks? Sounds like his holiday was ruined by an over zealous Instructor.
And people ask me why i refuse to become an instructor...

I agree with Azza

Once a diver is certified open water, he is responsible for his own actions. I don't think people should try to protect anyone from themselves. If no one ever pushed the limits there wouldn't even be scuba diving.

There are two problems with that opinion though.

First, nobody wants to dive on the boat that lost 17 divers last year, so the captain/divemaster should have the authority to limit anyones dives or even stop them from diving off their boat if they see fit to do so.

Second, if we allow everyone who is so inclined to kill themselves, then the government will be forced to step in and regulate the industry.

I think that as gator said, he should have called first to make sure his cert would allow him to dive as he wanted.

TT

 

[StingRob]

I certified cave diver would probably be ok for a wreck penetration still, wreck penetration is one thing and cave is another thing that’s way are two different courses.
In case something would happen the DM/boat operator would be liable so handle with care this issue… you want to dive using my boat, follow the rules.
That’s just my opinion…

Robert

 

[GDI]

I was in Truk this past summer- aboard Odyssey. My experience is that once they see a cert card of any kind, the ops don't give a crap WHAT you do. In point of fact, there were several members of our group with absolutely no overhead training- these people were not only told where to look for specific items, but what areas were easily penetrable, etc. in each and every dive breifing- on single tanks, no less. They were also encouraged to do dives I felt were patently dangerous for other reasons, but that is another story.

Basic gist- Truk is wide open for whatever you want to do, regardles of training type and certification.

This is exactly what happens, the industry is not holding themselves accountable to certification and limitations yet we state if you want to do this type of diving you need the card.

so you are saying that this was a badly disguised troll??

I find it hard to believe that this situation would occur. I think that the dive op would at best do a check out dive with both the wresk diver and the cave diver and after evaluating skills and attitude would allow thm both to penetrate the wreck. Probably they wouldnt even do this though, they would probably just let them both enter the wreck.

Not a troll and because it is a cave diver it is not likely to occur but it could. Does being a cave diver give you automatic certification to other diving disciplines

 

[MikeFerrara]

Does being a cave diver give you automatic certification to other diving disciplines

Of course not. I don't know about you but in the process of getting cave trained and cave diving I met the divers I started doing technical wreck dives with. They're divers who have been doing those dives since before there was such a thing as a technical wreck training and the traditional approach to preparing for diving wrecks has been to get cave training if the approach was to include any formal training at all.

Where does this attitude that you need a card for everything come from?

Lets say that a cave diver does decide to take a wreck class and he does it in the great lakes. Then he wants to dive some wrecks on Floridas east coast where it's live boating in current. Guess what...he probably hasn't done that before. Does he need another card or do you think the diver has the savvy to work himself up to the dives he wants to do without one?

Note: I'm assuming we're talking about technical wreck dives here because the average cave diver would get a good laugh out of the average recreational wreck class. No, I take that back. Any cave diver would get a good laugh...until he had to write the check that is.

 

[chickdiver]

Of course not. I don't know about you but in the process of getting cave trained and cave diving I met the divers I started doing technical wreck dives with. They're divers who have been doing those dives since before there was such a thing as a technical wreck training and the traditional approach to preparing for diving wrecks has been to get cave training if the approach was to include any formal training at all.

Where does this attitude that you need a card for everything come from?

Lets say that a cave diver does decide to take a wreck class and he does it in the great lakes. Then he wants to dive some wrecks on Floridas east coast where it's live boating in current. Guess what...he probably hasn't done that before. Does he need another card or do you think the diver has the savvy to work himself up to the dives he wants to do without one?

Note: I'm assuming we're talking about technical wreck dives here because the average cave diver would get a good laugh out of the average recreational wreck class. No, I take that back. Any cave diver would get a good laugh...until he had to write the check that is.

I agree with you 100% Mike.

 

[StSomewhere]

Not a troll and because it is a cave diver it is not likely to occur but it could. Does being a cave diver give you automatic certification to other diving disciplines

The opening chapter of Deep Descent talks about an incident like this, about a cave diver's first and last dive on the Andrea Doria.