Scary story to relay...

[MikeFerrara]

Nearly 100% experience ear problems? Sorry not buying it. Even without lawsuits, no decent instructor wants to face an angry diver or parent about ear pain. And if it was as common as you say, you bet, someone or many would be going after PADI legally.

Well I'm not selling anything so you don't have to buy it. I'm just reporting what I was told by the many divers who walked into my dive shop after having taken part in these programs.

Keep in mind here that many didn't even realize they had suffered a squeeze. the ones who got medical attention only did so after the problem persisted for an extended period. Most just thought they had water stuck in their ears for a week or so.

Equalizing to prevent squeeze is started, and taught, when first going under, certainly within 3 feet of the surface. Even an 8-foot deep pool is plenty deep enough for people to understand the consequences of not being able to equalize.

sure they're told about equalization. They might even try it in 3 feet of water. That's a lot different than controling a descent though. Again and to stress...
In the PADI program, they essentially do CW dive 1 prior to doing OW dive 1 and that's the DSD program. However, descents aren't taught untill CW dive 2 which is still backwards because buoyancy control isn't taught until CW dive 3. If you can't control a descent you're liabal to suffer a squeeze, I don't care what you've been told about equalization.

Sounds like you have an axe to grind with PADI, and I am surprised noone else has called you on it yet.

After being a PADI instructor for quit a while, I have many axes to grind with PADI and they all have to do directly with their training standards. The key "axe" that's relevant here...to state it again isIn the PADI program, they essentially do CW dive 1 prior to doing OW dive 1 and that's the DSD program. However, descents aren't taught untill CW dive 2 which is still backwards because buoyancy control isn't taught until CW dive 3.

To put it more simply, I think going diving in deep(er) water prior to learning a little about buoyancy control and practicing descents and ascents is way beyond stupid. To encourage people to do it, I think is way beyond irresponsible.

Of course the same complaint goes for their OW course because they encourage instructors to conduct OW dive one right after CW dive one. The reason for this is so that divers who have done a "Discover Scuba Diving" program can get credit for it. They refer to it as the "Dive Today Phylosophy". No need to guess, I am in complete disagreement with the entire philosophy.

Oh, and curious as to where the laxness about kids going too depth for a discover course occurred. Hard to imagine it was in Cozumel. Lots of dive ops, sure, but it is a very closeknit community, and if this stuff was commonly going on, I expect others would put a stop to it. Jamaica, on the other hand... "No worries, mon."

I don't think I said anything about anyone being lax about depth so I can't help you. PADI allows divers on a "Discover Scuba Diving Dive" to be taken to 40 ft. You can get a hell of a squeeze going to 40 ft if you aren't any good at controlling descents.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Ear injuries in dive training in general...

This is related to the reply in my last post but I wanted to address it in a stand alone post.

I wasn't teaching very long before I noticed how many students complained about "water being stuck in their ears" even days after diving (usually a pool session). Of course, this usually isn't water in their outer ear but rather blood and other fluids in their middle ear because of a squeeze.

True we tell students right off the bat to equalize early and often and not to descend if they can't. The problem is that many of them have never done it and don't know what it feels like. Lots of people can get to the bottom of a 10 ft pool without any real pain but the result is that full feeling in their ears for a couple of day after or longer...the squeeze.

One of the first major changes we made to our classes was to address this. Skipping most of the confined water work and taking people diving in "deeper" OW just magnifies the problem.

 

[ScubaThor]

wait, could DM or LDS be held responsible for "breaking" diving protocol??

I'm sure that was somewhere in the fine print of whatever waiver the parents signed....scary stuff!

 

[MikeFerrara]

On my third ocean dive and only about my 10th as an adult Certified OW diver the divemaster lead a group of us (all OW certified adults) right down to 80 ft.

The remarkable thing is that though he did check that we had cert. cards, he never once inquired about our range of experience, how many dives, or ask to see a log book. For all he knew, the ink still could have been wet on EVERYONE's card.

I noticed the depth right away because I had set my wrist computer to alarm at 60 feet to help me stay within my beginner recreational limits.

I had an "insta-buddy" and stuck close to him, but I stuck even closer to the divemaster. This was a wall dive and we did not stay at that depth for any length of time, but worked our way back up to shallower water.

All went well, everyone did fine ( though my insta-buddy had probems maintaining depth for a safety stop, he bobbed on up to the surface. )

My two previous ocean dives were with a different dive shop and they adhered to the 60 ft max depth, checked c-cards AND logbooks.

Is this generally regarded as o.k. since we were with a divemaster or did he stretch the rules of proper dive leadership?

You have to wonder why any one would want to take a diver who can't hold a safety stop on an 80 ft dive.

I've had AOW divers who had done 100 ft dives at resorts come to me for a nitrox class or something and after a skill assessment I wouldn't take them on an OW dive AT ALL until they learned to ascend and descend because they couldn't drop 20 ft to a training platform and stay together while doing it or hold their depth when they got there. But...there I go, grinding more axes. LOL

Diving is a great sport/hobby but it's definately a buyer beware kind of situation.

 

[Daryl Morse]

This is so unfair. I'm certified and haven't made it to 100 feet yet. And some discover scuba people get to go that far on their first dive!?! Man....that just ruined my holidays! If only I could find a good spring nearby that went to 100!

I can't believe you're serious. If you think that was unfair you ought to think again. It was unfair to the 14 year old kid who easily could have drowned. Why would it ruin your holidays that a kid easily could have drowned?

The recommended depth limit for a 14 year old kid (or anyone for that matter) doing Discover Scuba is 40 fsw for a reason and the recommended depth limit for a Open Water diver is 60 fsw for a reason. The DM / Instructor who took these people so deep on a Discover Scuba should be stripped of his credentials.

If you want to go deeper than 60 fsw, then get some more training and some more experience (not necessarily in that order). But even before that, think about your motivation for going "deep". Is it just to satisfy your ego or because there is actually something to see at whatever depth you want to dive to?

 

[boulderjohn]

I can't believe you're serious.

I'm pretty sure he isn't.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

Just so everyone knows, both of my posts in this thread are litereally dripping with sarcasm. Thank you Steve_dives for letting me know some people were concerned about my intent!

I have OW training and it's reccomended I stay above 60 feet, but they say 120 feet is the max. I guess I look back at my training and see that I think I was alittle better prepared than the average diver. I also read more and so far have dived more than several other divers I know, such as the people in my class and another dive buddy. He's got more dives but if I keep diving at the rate I'mgoing I'll surpass him in a few months easily. I've taken the book knowledge further than Joe Blow Diver, so I see no problem going deeper than 60 feet. I'm not overly confident though, and I think seeing sharks would scare me, so I don't stray far from my dive buddy. On a recent cruise I took, I was one of the only people that consistently stayed near the dive master. Several divers sort of wandered off throughotu the dive (nobody buddied us up, we were just all being watched by the DM. Only 8 of us, and most of us sort of had unspoken buddies.) and there were divers who hadn't dived in a long time, the kind that has problems with lots of little setup things that probably scares a DM half to death.

I think it is incredibly irresponsible to let untrained people go so far down. I've let a few friends try out scuba gear but ONLY in my pool, with it's max depth of 6 feet. I've also forced them to read most of the PADI OW manual before I let them put on any of my gear to see what it's like to breathe underwater. Some would call this irresponsible....I brought gear home from my PADI course one day and was messing around in my pool with the 1k of air left in the tank and within minutes both of my brothers wanted to try. So I let them. It's hilarious: one of the girls in my class took 30 minutes to be comfortable underwater and descend and kept having problems with it all. My youngest brother, who's 11, put the gear on (way too big on him!) and was happily swimming around at the bottom of the pool within three minutes. I didn't explain anything to him and he managed to figure it all out. I wouldn't trust him any deeper than 6 feet without massive supervision unless he were certified and really understood it all though. Even if I taught him everything inthe PADI manual I wouldn't let him take my gear anywhere. So I dunno, I guess money has become some people's god and they'll do anything,including endangering the lives of others, for a buck. It's JUST like those people who run those animal farms and let anyone have their picture taken by a real live lion for $20. Everyyear you hear about someone mauled.

 

[shadragon]

I have OW training and it's reccomended I stay above 60 feet, but they say 120 feet is the max. I guess I look back at my training and see that I think I was alittle better prepared than the average diver. I also read more and so far have dived more than several other divers I know, such as the people in my class and another dive buddy. He's got more dives but if I keep diving at the rate I'mgoing I'll surpass him in a few months easily. I've taken the book knowledge further than Joe Blow Diver, so I see no problem going deeper than 60 feet. I'm not overly confident though, and I think seeing sharks would scare me, so I don't stray far from my dive buddy. On a recent cruise I took, I was one of the only people that consistently stayed near the dive master. Several divers sort of wandered off throughotu the dive (nobody buddied us up, we were just all being watched by the DM. Only 8 of us, and most of us sort of had unspoken buddies.) and there were divers who hadn't dived in a long time, the kind that has problems with lots of little setup things that probably scares a DM half to death.

I think it is incredibly irresponsible to let untrained people go so far down. I've let a few friends try out scuba gear but ONLY in my pool, with it's max depth of 6 feet. I've also forced them to read most of the PADI OW manual before I let them put on any of my gear to see what it's like to breathe underwater. Some would call this irresponsible....I brought gear home from my PADI course one day and was messing around in my pool with the 1k of air left in the tank and within minutes both of my brothers wanted to try. So I let them. It's hilarious: one of the girls in my class took 30 minutes to be comfortable underwater and descend and kept having problems with it all. My youngest brother, who's 11, put the gear on (way too big on him!) and was happily swimming around at the bottom of the pool within three minutes. I didn't explain anything to him and he managed to figure it all out. I wouldn't trust him any deeper than 6 feet without massive supervision unless he were certified and really understood it all though. Even if I taught him everything inthe PADI manual I wouldn't let him take my gear anywhere. So I dunno, I guess money has become some people's god and they'll do anything,including endangering the lives of others, for a buck. It's JUST like those people who run those animal farms and let anyone have their picture taken by a real live lion for $20. Everyyear you hear about someone mauled.

There is so much wrong with what you said above I honestly don't know where to begin. The biggest thing you have to realize as a responsible diver is to know your own limitations. As an OW diver you have learned nothing about rescue technique.

- If that young lady freaked out on you in the middle of that 6' pool do you know what to do to help without endangering yourself?

- Do you know how to safely recover an unresponsive diver from the bottom of that pool?

- Do you know CPR and specifically how to treat a near drowning victim?

Reading about a SCUBA skill in a book and actually doing it when submerged are two completely different things. So at this point you are saying I am over-reacting as it is only a shallow pool. Here is a thread from another part of this board:

http://www.scubaboard.com/archive/index.php/t-96519.html

A qualified and well seasoned instructor drowned in a swimming pool. He was found at a depth of 4 feet. There are many more threads about students drowning in classes, when diving with family members, etc. You are not an instructor and cannot recognize equipment problems before they get in the water. You placed your friends/family in a very precarious position and only luck saved you from disaster. You can drown in 2 inches of water. When untrained people use ill-fitting SCUBA gear without appropriate supervision there is no "safe" depth.

Other points. A DM typically has one spare Octo. If you are diving with 8 others you had better have an alternate plan if that Octo is in use with someone else. That is why you dive with a buddy. An "unspoken" buddy is not a buddy. You can turn around and be completely alone when your unspoken buddy goes off to look at something interesting behind your back. You discuss that BEFORE you dive. You designate buddies, practice the hand signs you are going to use, the dive plan and emergency contingency planning. Your buddy is YOUR alternative air source. If you go diving without planning that little detail, make sure your Will is in good order before your head drops below the surface.

The number of dives you have is irrelevant. How you conduct yourself on those dives is much more important.

 

[D_B]

Just remarkable :shakehead

"only 6ft" .... You took OW, did you remember the part about 3ft is all it takes to injure yourself, maybe die, if you take a breath under water and then come up holding it?

Of course you knew that they would not hold there breath

 

[skinnydogdives]

shadragon I'm so glad somebody has pointed this out
not only was it irresponsible but only dive professionals /instructors /assistant instructors are likely to have liability insurance.
who pays the bill if something goes wrong??