Scuba training costs..........

[caseybird]

To create a market for cards?

Can I rent a boat without a dive certification and go out and dive off of it? I'll bet I can. Can I hire a boat and a capt, tell him where to park the boat and jump off of it with scuba gear? I'll bet I can.

Do you know that I can buy any gas mix I want from a "gas supplier" and they don't care what I do with the gas and that they don't know or care anything about diving certifications? I can.

The only place that I have to show a card to buy gas is at a dive shop. The only boat that wants to see a diving certification is a "dive boat". The common thread is their agency affiliations.

Y

Yes you can, Mike. That's what makes America great. Youve made it really clear you have no need for a dive op of any sort, and more power to you.
However, you have never tried to apply your ideas to any diver who is not interested in chartering a boat or buying his own compressor. In fact, I doubt you always fill your own tanks from your own compressor, or dive off your own boat.
You've made it clear you have little regard for recreational divers, have no interest in the dive business, and in fact would be much happier if there were very few divers. I don't understand why you post on scubabord, I don't understand the satisfaction you get from telling other people they don't know what they are doing.
You didn't even try to answer my question. LOL

 

[Thalassamania]

You didn't even try to answer my question. LOL

Why would Mike try to answer your question when that had already been taken care of?

 

[caseybird]

Why would Mike try to answer your question when that had already been taken care of?

Rhetoric is not an answer.
Let me make my question clearer. How will dive ops function in the legal and business environment without defined, verifiable, international standards? It's easy to say "I don't need a dive op", but most divers do. I know there are flaws in the cert. system, and poorly trained divers, but please describe another viable system.
If you don't want dive operators, say so.

 

[Storm]

Rhetoric is not an answer.
Let me make my question clearer. How will dive ops function in the legal and business environment without defined, verifiable, international standards? It's easy to say "I don't need a dive op", but most divers do. I know there are flaws in the cert. system, and poorly trained divers, but please describe another viable system.
If you don't want dive operators, say so.

Ok I say so

Well the standards are there, I have to conceed that point. To call them "defined" and "verifiable", well yes they are in the literal sense of those two words. I can most definately verify that they exist, so they are verifyable. And the do define the terms, actions etc that are contained within their pages.

But in the spirit of the discussin, they, well, quite literally suck. The WRSTC standards are not stringent enough and are not so well defined as to eliminate the fact that the Agency/LDS/DI has a great deal of wiggle room, in whcih to pass a student, and very little rom in which t fail a student. In short, as far as a "standard" goes, they aren't. More like a set of training principles, with core a ciriculum that often leaves the student in need of futher training.

If a DI were to add skills to his/her course (to better tain his students and add value to his fee), that were outside of the "standards" the DI would be hard pressed to fail a student who passed all the WRSTC pass points but failed the instructor added skills. If called to the carpet, the DI would have to sign off despite his/her feelings.

So there is very little incentive to trying to add extra value to his/her course, and in fact could actually cause problems for the DI.

So to some degree, in the way the agencies have mandated that there DI's follow the narrow criteria set out by the standards (which the agencies had a hand in writing), the agencies ARE to blame for the training that are out there.

A body IS needed to maintain and add to the standards, but the agenies need not exist. The governing body looking after the standards could police the DIs directly. Now woth teh giverning body in direct conversation woth teh DIs improvements to the standards would be easier as the Agencies (who have a financial interest) could not interfere.

 

[Thalassamania]

Rhetoric is not an answer.
Let me make my question clearer. How will dive ops function in the legal and business environment without defined, verifiable, international standards? It's easy to say "I don't need a dive op", but most divers do. I know there are flaws in the cert. system, and poorly trained divers, but please describe another viable system.
If you don't want dive operators, say so.

I'm not opposing dive operators, or shops, or instruction. I have a problem with the rather sanctimonious authoritarianism of the training agencies at this juncture. It was one thing when the guys that ran the agencies were "top divers" themselves, but as far as I can tell they've, by and large, been replaced by the marketeers and other empty suits.

How does skiing manage to survive? There are organizations that certify ski instructors and ski patrol personnel, but not individual skiers. We participate in many activities that lack a "defined, verifiable, international standard" (not to say that diving has one) without any problem what-so-ever. Martial Arts, is a perfect example of an industry with a mixed model, some practitioners subscribing to an international organization and standard, while others hang out a shingle and do it on their own. Golf, tennis, fencing, horseback riding, bowling, archery, firearms, and an industry slightly larger than diving: Bocce Ball, are similar examples.

 

[fire_diver]

You've made it clear you have little regard for recreational divers, have no interest in the dive business, and in fact would be much happier if there were very few divers. I don't understand why you post on scubabord, I don't understand the satisfaction you get from telling other people they don't know what they are doing.
You didn't even try to answer my question.

Easy on the hostility there. I think you are getting a bit sanctimonious. What I read in is statement is that dive shops are out to make money and don't want the average diver to know that certification isn't required.

People have been diving since the beginning without ever paying one dollar to a scuba agency. If that's what they want, so be it. I could really care less. As for posting on scuba board, I have gained a LOT of valuable, usefull information from MikeFerrara. What have WE gained from you?

FD

 

[fire_diver]

Rhetoric is not an answer.
Let me make my question clearer. How will dive ops function in the legal and business environment without defined, verifiable, international standards? It's easy to say "I don't need a dive op", but most divers do. I know there are flaws in the cert. system, and poorly trained divers, but please describe another viable system.
If you don't want dive operators, say so.

They would function just fine. Nobody needs a certification to buy brake parts and repair thier own car. If THAT fails, it could kill alot of people other than that one individual. Who is going to "set the standard"? Because I haven't seen a good one set yet. Why worry about international? Every country has thier own way of doing things, should GB or Australia try to conform with what us yanks are doing? Or vise versa?

Why do most people need a dive op? Because the dive ops all say we do? Maybe when I retire and move to the coast, I'll set up air fill stations at all the major dive sites. Completely automated. Put in your bottle, pay your $5, and the compressor kicks on and fills your bottle. I'll be the next scuba millionaire! Just have to start 2 mill......

FD

 

[Ron Brandt]

My original question was only about why training does not cost more at a basic level, mainly so the instructors can be paid properly.

Instructors being paid properly...that will never happen in this industry.

Ron

 

[Ron Brandt]

Why do most people need a dive op? Because the dive ops all say we do?
FD

At one time Sears sold scuba as well as regular sporting goods stores....the dive shop just evolved. Sport Chalet follows the "old model" I believe.

Ron

 

[MikeFerrara]

In fact, I doubt you always fill your own tanks from your own compressor, or dive off your own boat.

Actually until I recently had to sell my compressor I did do all my own tank filling for quit a few years.

You've made it clear you have little regard for recreational divers, have no interest in the dive business, and in fact would be much happier if there were very few divers.

I don't know how you came to that conclusion. While I do not hold the agencies in very high regard I've put quit a bit of time and energy into training divers and helping them get started and have done it professionally and just to do it.

I don't have much interest in or liking for the dive business these days but that lack of interest comes from my experience in the business. I owned a dive shop for several years, have been an instructor for two agencies (now inactive) PADDI MSDT #166562 and IANTD advanced nitrox instructor #3696 and I have baught my share or training ranging the full gammit from OW to trimix and cave. So...I have seen a bit of the dive business both as a consumer and from inside the business.

I don't understand why you post on scubabord, I don't understand the satisfaction you get from telling other people they don't know what they are doing.

Do you want me to lie?