Scuba training costs..........

[MikeFerrara]

Rhetoric is not an answer.
Let me make my question clearer. How will dive ops function in the legal and business environment without defined, verifiable, international standards?

I don't know why it's so hard to understand. If you want a tank filled, they fill it. Why do they need to be responsible for whether or not you know what to do with it? If you want to buy a spot on a dive boat...you buy it. Why should the oporator be responsible for making sure that you can dive?

Does a certification card say that you can dive? In my experience NO! In fact, I couldn't even count the number of times that a prospective student came to me for a con-ed class already holding some number of cards and a simple skill eveluation showed them to unsafe in any water and at any depth and I had to start them over pretty much from the beginning before doing any kind of dive with them at all.

What did their cards do?

The existing standards and the cards that result are totally meaningless as far as I'm concerned. Your OW card tells me nothing of value and if, for some reason, I would feel it necessary to make sure that you can dive I would need to see you in that water.

It's easy to say "I don't need a dive op", but most divers do. I know there are flaws in the cert. system, and poorly trained divers, but please describe another viable system.
If you don't want dive operators, say so.

Why does there have to be a system? If you have the money you buy breathing gas or a spot on a boat then buy it. You know whether or not you can dive. Don't you? If you feel ok with the dive do it...otherwise don't. Again, if I am going to be responsible for making sure that your knowledge and skills are up to the dive, looking at a card isn't going to do anything. I'll need to do an in-water evaluation...in which case, I still don't care about the card because either you can get through the evaluation or you can't. Why does the dive op have to be responsible for looking at your card? If we did away with the cards (or just ignored them) the legal system would get a break. It would all be up to you and you wouldn't have anyone to try to blame. Add a line to the liability release and let the diver state that THEY feel they have adequate training/experience. They baught the card, let them take responsibility for it.

It works. Really! We drive to a dive site and dive it or we don't. No one looks at a card. A friend parks his boat over a wreck out in Lake Superior and we dive it or we don't. There's no one to look at a card.

The only finction the cards serve is to create a market for courses that have little or no training value.

 

[Thalassamania]

I'm with Mike, since a certification card really means very little (once upon or time this diver took some training that may or may not have actually met the standards then, which may or may not have been more stringent or lenient than the are today). Why bother? I much prefer the reseach community's solution. You show up, no matter who you are (I've had to go through this at every institution I've visited for work), with your log book and do a checkout.

 

[caseybird]

Do you want me to lie?

Heck no, Mike. You may be surprised, but I agree that cert cards don't guarantee good divers. Good divers are self-motivated to practice, study and increase their skills, and cards don't make good dive students. We might also agree that certs, as opposed to training, do nothing to create good divers. The certs are supposed to reflect good training, not substitute for it.
Therefore, certs don't protect divers. So, what are they for?

The only real answer, is to establish a framework to defend dive ops from lawsuits. The cert system is not just a card. It is a paper trail that records training, to demonstrates the diver understands the hazards of diving, and has learned the required skills to dive. Remember, everyone who completes a course signs docments that show they understand and accept the risks and has undergone training.

I think you're proposing that all shops and ops could stop checking cards, have the diver sign an immutable waiver of liability, and let the divers out to sink or swim. This way, the diver assumes all legal risk. Does this reflect your thinking?

I don't believe a dive op could run a business under these conditions. Every diver and his heirs would represent a gigantic legal risk, a risk that could bankrupt a business and the op's life savings. It doesn't matter whether the dive op adheres to standards or doesn't care, the capricious nature of the legal system could destroy the op. It's very hard to sign away all your legal rights, and without the cert. paperwork trail, it would be much easier to sue an operator and win.

You have pointed out that in the absense of dive ops, a diver can buy gear, a compressor and a boat and dive wherever the diver chooses. True, but it wouldn't be realistic for me, I don't believe it would be realistic for the great majority of divers. It would also limit my diving to a tiny geographic area. The practical effect would be far fewer dive opportunities for good and bad divers alike. You have even admitted to selling your compressor. If you went into a new area,where you were not known, do you expect the compressor owner to risk his livelehood in the existing legal climate? Is that fair?

So certs are not about the diver, it's about the op. My basic questions still are:
Do divers need dive ops? (compressors, boats, shops)
Do these dive ops need some form of legal protection?
Can every operator afford the costs of legal protection without the paperwork trail and the resources of the agency?
Is there a viable alternative to agency certs for the dive op?
What is it?
Is everyone operating a shop with agency affiliation just an idiot?
You ran a dive shop, Did you issue agency cert cards? Why?

Talk to you.

 

[fire_diver]

If you went into a new area,where you were not known, do you expect the compressor owner to risk his livelehood in the existing legal climate? Is that fair?

So certs are not about the diver, it's about the op. My basic questions still are:
Do divers need dive ops? (compressors, boats, shops)
Do these dive ops need some form of legal protection?
Can every operator afford the costs of legal protection without the paperwork trail and the resources of the agency?
Is there a viable alternative to agency certs for the dive op?
What is it?
Is everyone operating a shop with agency affiliation just an idiot?
You ran a dive shop, Did you issue agency cert cards? Why?

Talk to you.

OK, I'm done here. You keep asking the same questions over and over. You don't like the answers, just keep re-posting the question.

 

[TheRedHead]

Why can't the dive charter operator be a "bus driver?" It is only because they assume responsibilities for the divers that they become liable. I've signed waivers that required you to initial each paragraph containing strong language that I understand that I may die underwater and that the type of diving I was engaging in was potentially dangerous.

From my reading, I get the impression that the agencies encourage the involvement that creates the opportunity for lawsuits. PADI states in their DM manual that most divers want the involvement of a divemaster. So, therefore, it must be true?

 

[Thalassamania]

The only real answer, is to establish a framework to defend dive ops from lawsuits. The cert system is not just a card. It is a paper trail that records training, to demonstrates the diver understands the hazards of diving, and has learned the required skills to dive. Remember, everyone who completes a course signs docments that show they understand and accept the risks and has undergone training.

What came first, the lawsuits or the agencies? I think that you’ll find the agencies came first. So your, "only real answer" can’t be true. In point of fact, it is the agencies that brought it on themselves by changing the standard of practice in the community and by promulgating the idea that diving is safe. Back in the day when you filled your tanks in a shed behind the sporting goods store and everyone knew that you had to be crazy to risk your life diving, there were no lawsuits because there were no deep pockets and you had to accept personal responsibility for doing something so nutso.

Why can't the dive charter operator be a "bus driver?" It is only because they assume responsibilities for the divers that they become liable. I've signed waivers that required you to initial each paragraph containing strong language that I understand that I may die underwater and that the type of diving I was engaging in was potentially dangerous.

From my reading, I get the impression that the agencies encourage the involvement that creates the opportunity for lawsuits. PADI states in their DM manual that most divers want the involvement of a divemaster. So, therefore, it must be true?

No, actually the U.S. Coast Guard says that they can’t just be a bus driver. Long tradition and Admiralty Court precedence says that a Captain is responsible for folks on his or her boat … even when they get off the boat to dive.

 

[caseybird]

No, actually the U.S. Coast Guard says that they can’t just be a bus driver. Long tradition and Admiralty Court precedence says that a Captain is responsible for folks on his or her boat … even when they get off the boat to dive.

So dive boats just can't walk away from legal liability?

 

[caseybird]

OK, I'm done here. You keep asking the same questions over and over. You don't like the answers, just keep re-posting the question.

You're right, I'm done.

 

[TheRedHead]

No, actually the U.S. Coast Guard says that they can’t just be a bus driver. Long tradition and Admiralty Court precedence says that a Captain is responsible for folks on his or her boat … even when they get off the boat to dive.

That's what Dan Crowell said when he had so many people dying on the Andrea Doria and U-869. He said he was a bus driver and I don't think anyone sued him. Is the captain required to make sure divers are properly trained? Is he responsible for what they do under water?

 

[Storm]

You have pointed out that in the absense of dive ops, a diver can buy gear, a compressor and a boat and dive wherever the diver chooses. True, but it wouldn't be realistic for me, I don't believe it would be realistic for the great majority of divers.

Well my son in law is in the welding supply business. With no certifications, on my part, I can purchase, from his company, cylinders of;

1. breathing quality compressed air
2. medical grade oygen
3. breathing quality helium

All I have to do is say they are for baloons for a party, chi-ching....and the cylinders are delivered.

I can, and have, from any on-line Dive shop, but new gear including regs etc, without a cert card.

I can also go to eBay, and buy gear..no quetions asked.

I can go down to the local boat rental company and take out a 16 foot zodiacw 25 hp outboard for a day...again no cert or license asked...it's actually about the same cost of a dive charter

so.....

Do divers need dive ops? (compressors, boats, shops)

Not really. they make it easier, but are not necessary

Saying that your particualar situation makes not using a dive op more difficult is one thing, but generalizing by saying that most divers would find id difficult, may be ummmm.....incorrect.