ScubaPro vs. everyone

[Matt]

So, I've been having a few people harrassing me at work lately about Apex. According to the results posted here, a lot of you have Apex regs showing up in the mail that you've ordered even though you've never ever dove your regs. The most common questions have been yoke or din?? No where does it say how well the regs breath. How can you talk about a reg without using one first?

I've used every reg in the industry including the entire Apex line. They are a good reg, but don't breath as good as a lot of people think they do. They are a mid price reg, they don't ice up, but they don't outperform Scubapro's mid range reg's, nor do they outperform the Poseidon Jetstream Odin which is the same price as a TX50.

I've looked on the DIR sites about what to use, and it appears the MK20/G250 is still the most popular reg for technical diving. And its an amazing reg. I haven't seen anything but G250's on any of the DIR sites.

I do all types of diving including: Wreck, Cave, Advanced Trimix, Extended Range, and I teach many levels as an Instructor I am mostly DIR (except for my Poseidon). No regulator has offered me the performance that the Mark 20/S600 has.

It just destroyed every major brand of regulator in the industry (including Apex) by surpassing the US NAVY Test requirement for a Class "A" regulator by 6 TIMES! My first dive home in Canada was 240ft. On a wreck test diving some regs My new S600, Jetstream, DS4/TX50's. I sold the TX50's not long after that dive.

I got sold on Scubapro while taking my cave course in Mexico from a GUE instructor who let me play with some of his new gear. My Scubapro is a pleasure to breath off, its even the toughest regulator I've ever seen as I witnessed it being run over by my truck! I was on a wreck trip and did 6 dives with it afterwards and it worked perfectly fine, maybe even better now that it had been broken in a bit.

The nice thing about the MK20 is the fact that its a piston first stage (sort of) it has an open end piston which opens the air way and gives you the maximum amount of airflow. They have an antifreeze kit inside the first stage for extreme diving conditions. For you future DIR guys this is another huge selling feature. The Mark 20 offers the BEST 1st stage for streamlining your hoses and allows you to angle the first stages in some pretty crazy postions and even lets you run hoses out of the end of the reg.

The S600 second stage performs so well because of the air balanced flow valve they've added, and also has a Viva venturi assisted 2nd stage which creates a vaccum like effect in the 2nd stage, it opens the air way by cracking the air way almost before you start your inhalation. Its small, lightweight, and all teflon coated which resists freezing. Haven't Iced mine up yet!

For a detailed schematic check out their webpage:

www.scubapro.com

You should check it out and it'll explain things a little more indepth, and you may even learn something about regulators.

Cost on the regs isn't bad, you get what you pay for. Thats what having the best is all about. Thats why Scuba Pro offers you the Luxery you deserve and the performance (Most) of you will Never need. Apex is well made like a volvo, but it doesn't do anything special.

Dacor Viper is another reg for Discussion. Its a Mares regulator. Dacor inherits all of Mares rejected technology. They're the department store clearance line of Mares. If you want a reg by Mares Buy a Mares. Viper is okay, gives a good lung of air, but its not a very natural breather. It breaths too far too the Left! Mares Axis is better, and Scubapro R190 beats both.

While not everyone needs a MK20/S600. MK16/S550 is also very popular. You've still got a reg that breaths better than the TX100 or TX50, and costs the same as a TX50!

Bottom Line:

If you want the Best Performance, best reliablity, and a reg that will bring you a lifetime of loyalty uy the Scubapro line. Anyone who has is happy, and thats important. There really aren't too many bad regs on the market, but every year I try out all of teh new regs on the market and see what I want to sell my students and the customers for the shop I work for.

Our line's change every couple of years like the models do. 1 thing that has never changes is Scubapro has always been the BEST company for regulators. The 1 thing that has changed is that they will now work for the rigous conditions here in Canada. Now they've replaced my Apex line. We still sell all brands but cherry pick what we need out of everyone's line's.

This year the Mark 20 first stage has been changed to the Mark 25. Its the same first stage but it has a different adjustment for the intermediate pressure. And a new sticker on the yoke screw. Thats it!

;-0

Sorry to burst your bubble's

 

[Lost Yooper]

Most of the guys within the WKPP are using Apeks, not SP's, for their increased reliabilty and low maintenance requirements. Irvine uses Apeks DS4's for all of his bottles now, but gives a great deal of credit to the 100. I seem to recall the Apeks regs beating the machines too. I doubt if a reg beats machine by four times or six times that it's all that relavent to a human. Maybe, I guess.

I, too, have had an Odin and my Apeks at depth and the Odin wasn't even in the same league, IMO. The cracking effort was significantly more than the Apeks. The Odin is no longer among my arsenal of regs. SP does make great regs, but unless something has changed, they were always a lot more expensive. The performance differences between the two aren't signficant enough to warrent the higher price of the SP, IMO.

Apeks regs are certainly very proven among extreme technical divers in all environments, and are within a price range that kills many other regs of lesser track records. I'm not really interested in arguing about the matter as SP certainly makes decent regs too. I believe Apeks is among the top three reg manufacturers out there, anyway (the differences of which are miniscule).

My "bubble" remains intact . Take care.

Mike

PS. One thing is for certain, an Apeks reg will take anyone to any depth attainable on OC, and it will do it reliably too.

 

[GP]

Matt, you sound like a ScubaPro salesman or representative. I wonder if they'll pay you for you're wonderful advertisement..

 

[Matt]

I find it hard to believe that the odin wasn't the performer you say it is. How old was it? Was it bought new? Was it serviced by a certified techinican? How deep do you dive? There aren't too many people here in Canada that can service Poseidon, my shop is one of 3 in Ontario that can properly do it.

As far as reliablity goes for the WKPP guys using Apex, there is NO Way that a Diaphragm regulator is more reliable than a piston first stage. There is so little to go wrong in a piston reg there are hardly any o-rings, and fewer moving parts, if anything diaphragm first stages are more prone to failure. Thats why almost 90% of the rental fleets accross the south areas use Sherwood, because they don't screw up. I will never use an Apex first stage again as on a Labour Day weekend trip one of mine blew up! My OPR valve malfunctioned, and blew the dry sealed cap on the end of the DS4. I've never had a problem with my MK2's. They are piston also.

I am a service technician for most major brands of regs, and the one's that are usually in the best shape inside are the piston regs. I've serviced almost every reg out there now.

As far as pricing on Scubapro and Apex goes maybe you weren't buying them from a good dive shop. My shop in town offers great selection, and the lowest pricing accross the board on everything.

I'm not a sales rep for scubapro, although the job for Canada just can up this week, and if I could I would. They are simply the best!
:boom:

 

[Matt]

The US Navy in the last year selected 12 new regulator systems to go with. 10 were various poseidon combinations, and the other 2 regs had poseidon first stages. The Navy had their pick of everyone and has always been under contract with US Divers who is the distributor for Apex. They chose to go elsewhere for regs this year. Just a little peice of information for you all.

Thanks,

 

[Lost Yooper]

I bought the Odin new a few years ago. On an air dive to 175' (I know... utterly stupid) the Odin wasn't even in the same league. It was tuned up too. The cracking effort of the Apeks is virtually undetectable. For mix, it's a dream. My experiences match up pretty well with others who have done similar experiments. Of course, every reg seems to have it's followers, I guess.

Say what you will about the reliablity of Apeks, but Irvine doesn't even carry a rebuild kit for his Apeks regs. In fact, he hasn't rebuilt his Apeks regs in years (5+). They have had so many problems with SP's, reliability wise, that he won't even use them anymore, much less recommend them. I'm not going to make his arguments for him, but if you want, go ahead and e-mail him yourself and find out what specifically he likes about Apeks and dislikes about SP's.

girvine@bellsouth.net

One thing is for certain, they aren't about to use less than ideal regs in the environment they're in. They have done a great deal more experimentation than most anyone out there too, and budget isn't an object for these guys either.

I'm curious about why you had an OPV on your reg (I'm assuming argon) and why you blame the reg for the OPV failure.

Take care.

Mike

 

[GP]

Well bottom line is both Apeks and Scubapro's are great regs and as long as I've been surfing the board; Matt, you're the first person I've read Dis Apeks. IMO there is no PERFECT regulator brand and I'd be willing to bet every brand has had a failure at some point due to a manufacturers defect.

 

[Lost Yooper]

I believe Matt is the first person on any of the boards I've heard complainig about Apeks regs, not just SB. So, one person in years of surfing ain't too bad, eh?

Just ribbin' ya, Matt.



Mike

 

[devjr]

I've stuck with Scubapro for quite a few years. There are various reasons but the main one is familiarity and respect for the overbuilt forgings and machined parts.

I don't agree that these regs are simple in construction. That was true in the early 70's but today's regs have a whole lot of parts. The company is constantly fiddling with the designs and is now using more plastic pieces which caused me to be a little cautious in selection of my replacement. I settled on a MK20/G250 and everything works fine.

Reliability problems alleged by cave divers probably involve user repair or maintenance. They are frequently working on stuff and I've heard stories of blowouts due to replacement, off brand O rings and that sort of thing. You got to use the right parts. Some of these folks are not humble about their mistakes.

I have no particular preference of piston vs diaphragm. I did at one time when Scubapros had reputations as "leakers". Nowadays, the SP piston design is so refined and sorted out that I consider it as reliable as the diaphragm type.

I know what you mean about the piston innards looking better at overhaul time. They are stainless steel and plastic whereas diaphragm regs may use several brass parts which take on a grody look if salt is blown into the inlet port. No biggie.

 

[large_diver]

Matt,

We all bow to your incredible wisdom, experience and spelling ability.

I have an Apeks and enjoy diving with it. I feel comfortable recommending Apeks to other divers because they are reliable and relatively cheap.

I don't think you should read too much into the US Navy reg selection process. Government procurement is a process filled with domestic vendor favoritism and illogical choices.

I don't know how good I feel about a reg brand which you yourself say didn't used to function well in cold water conditions.

Thanks for the sales pitch.

-LD